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Connie 01-02-2018 06:35 AM

transgenders in the military
 
I'm sure it is no surprise to anyone on WB, that I rejoice over the news that transgenders are going to be accepted into the military. They should be entitled to serve their country like everyone else. But there is a problem right at the start. There are two conditions- one that they have transitioned at least 18 months ago- and the second is that all medical procedures be completed. But as you can imagine. there is a whole spectrum of medical procedures that these individuals may choose to have. From a relatively minor tracheal shave to a major genital reconstruction. I know transgenders that stopped at many of the stages in between. So, whats the criteria going to be to declare "medical procedures complete'?

JohnConstantine 01-02-2018 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie (Post 740092)
I'm sure it is no surprise to anyone on WB, that I rejoice over the news that transgenders are going to be accepted into the military. They should be entitled to serve their country like everyone else. But there is a problem right at the start. There are two conditions- one that they have transitioned at least 18 months ago- and the second is that all medical procedures be completed. But as you can imagine. there is a whole spectrum of medical procedures that these individuals may choose to have. From a relatively minor tracheal shave to a major genital reconstruction. I know transgenders that stopped at many of the stages in between. So, whats the criteria going to be to declare "medical procedures complete'?

I'm guessing they'll have to sign something which says they don't intend to get any more work done -- major surgery wise?

Aside from that in principle I agree no reason to exclude whoever wants to get involved in the whole thing. I'm probably more interested in the concept of serving ones country, to whom, and to what end? Born in 1985 I guess it's been hard for me to feel strictly protected, or served by the military. They seem to have been over in far away lands committing extraordinary acts of violence for reasons which are at best foggy for decades. It's certainly difficult to see it as self defence.

I was in barracks not too long ago and tried to get some answers. A commander basically had this to say 'I don't get into the politics of it, I know full well we could be brainwashed, it's what we've signed up for'. I returned home all the more nervous about the whole institution.

fleamailman 01-02-2018 07:01 AM

("...I'm glad you're on this forum Connie, I have no opinion myself but I do take interest in what you post and how you relate to it too..." went the goblin in full approval mode, adding "...while we're on the topic of the american military, just a sideline perhaps, but I note how switzerland's wealth is in part derived because we don't post our military abroad whatsoever, though back to topic military transgender is not really an issue in switzerland, or least hasn't become one yet...", where the goblin remembered doing the protection civil instead imagining that anyone not quite fitting the norm could always take that option there, explaining "...one is no less serving one's country, in fact if anything one is more likely to be called up because in peacetime there are calamities that need just this "dad's army" type roles that the protection civil does...")

Connie 01-02-2018 08:25 AM

I do admire those countries that have compulsory civil service- like Israel, whether it be mail delivery, healthcare, or active combat service. It instills in a kid the obligation they owe their country and their countrymen who served before them. And most people who have served admit that it "made a man" out of them. Hmmm, this might frighten away some transgenders who wish to serve. And thanks Flea, I'm happy to be here.

brianpatrick 01-02-2018 01:43 PM

I wish people would just stop politicizing issues like this. Why does anybody (except those who are personally involved) care. Well, I know why.

Iím not sure about the details of the OP. Sounds like the Government wants to avoid downtime or potentially paying for surgeries or complications maybe?

I wonder if CRISPR will make being transgender any easier in the future.




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Nick Pierce 01-02-2018 03:31 PM

If someone is tryin' to save my ass while someone else is tryin' to wax it I won't give a fuck what their alphabet soup ID is.

Er, maybe I ain't intellectualizing this shit enough.

So shoot me.

Nick Pierce 01-02-2018 03:32 PM

[QUOTE=Nick Pierce

So shoot me.

[/QUOTE]


Ooops.
Gonna go to a "Safe Place" and think of a way to rephrase that.

Connie 01-03-2018 05:34 AM

[QUOTE=brianpatrick;740102]I wish people would just stop politicizing issues like this. Why does anybody (except those who are personally involved) care. Well, I know why.

Iím not sure about the details of the OP. Sounds like the Government wants to avoid downtime or potentially paying for surgeries or complications maybe?

I wonder if CRISPR will make being transgender any easier in the future.



CRISPR? Whats that?

brianpatrick 01-03-2018 01:24 PM

Itís a new gene editing technology, harnessing the power of bacteriaís natural defense against viruses.

There is a really good podcast by Radiolab on the topic. If you google Radiolab CRISPR you should find it on YouTube.

After I posed the question I googled and found that it may not be able to help one sex become another in actuality (Something to do with the Y chromosomes, etc.- or something like that) but it promises to make a lot of the physical characteristics questions involved in transitioning easier, more concrete, and cheaper.


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Mohican 01-04-2018 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie (Post 740098)
I do admire those countries that have compulsory civil service- like Israel, whether it be mail delivery, healthcare, or active combat service. It instills in a kid the obligation they owe their country and their countrymen who served before them. And most people who have served admit that it "made a man" out of them. Hmmm, this might frighten away some transgenders who wish to serve. And thanks Flea, I'm happy to be here.

Compulsory service doesn't instill a sense of obligation into everyone, and in my opinion is anathematic to a supposedly free society.

Duty, Obligation is best instilled at home or if lacking at home then hopefully through community or school or perhaps church.

JohnConstantine 01-05-2018 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohican (Post 740201)
Compulsory service doesn't instill a sense of obligation into everyone, and in my opinion is anathematic to a supposedly free society.

Yep -- and presupposes the benevolence and omniscience of the state. This whole obligation to the collective is a pretty brain dead way of thinking.

What if the state decides to commit genocide?

What if your family are a bunch of low life criminals and scumbags?

What if your teacher is a complete idiot?

What if your church is a cesspit of debauchery?

Etc etc etc.

flyingtart 01-05-2018 12:34 AM

How about having nobody in the military?

How about having no military?

JohnConstantine 01-05-2018 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingtart (Post 740214)
How about having nobody in the military?

How about having no military?

I'm up for that.

There will always be security forces of one sort or another. But let them rely solely on private customers and see if they go around policing the world. Won't happen, unprofitable.

But let's say no military, then it's all private, which means the end of risky expensive invasions. What do you do about arms sales, which is crazy profitable?

Of course our governments are doing a great job arming the entire planet with the latest weaponry. All Western states are in stupid amounts of debt, selling arms helps, so when you get some violent outbreak in Yemen, say, with Iran funding rebels and SA weighing in on the side of the government, we can make money, not get our hands dirty, and complete a geopolitical task which is vaguely in our favour. Meanwhile Yemen is fucked indefinitely. But I can't the see the market doing anything different, in fact the market would probably sell to both sides, why not?

You'd have to have some kind of agency whose function was to stop the flow of arms out of the country.

Nick Pierce 01-05-2018 01:59 AM

[QUOTE=JohnConstantine

But let's say no military, then it's all private, which means the end of risky expensive invasions.

[/QUOTE]

Were not the Vikings groups of private individuals that took on the risk of invading everyplace they could get to?

Nick Pierce 01-05-2018 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingtart (Post 740214)
How about having nobody in the military?

How about having no military?



Maybe if there was no chance of a military like response terrorist groups would no longer attack defenseless targets.

Actually all things would be defenseless.
The sheer number of targets would, eventually, exhaust the resources of all terrorist organizations.
Then peace would reign the world over.

True, it would take some generations to make this happen but what is time and some requisite life expenditure when the greater good is being implemented.

Not thinkin' this is a plan that could be put up to a vote though.

JohnConstantine 01-05-2018 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce (Post 740217)
Were not the Vikings groups of private individuals that took on the risk of invading everyplace they could get to?

Yes. Probably.

And you could say someone like ISIS are similar. But you also notice in the modern context ISIS can't mount a serious campaign to establish their own state, let alone begin invading others and creating some kind of empire. It's just too costly. Look at the debt to GDP ratio of countries involved in WW1 and 2 before and after. People say war is profitable but it's really not.

And, my bet is that if you follow the money you'll find that the means for their existence actually comes from government, ie: the coalition between Western and Arab Gulf states. ISIS were heavily funded and armed but unless they establish a strong system of taxation (become their own government), they will always be a fringe nuisance rather than a genuine threat to world peace.

Nick Pierce 01-05-2018 03:12 AM

[QUOTE=JohnConstantine

And, my bet is that if you follow the money you'll find that the means for their existence actually comes from government, ie: the coalition between Western and Arab Gulf states.


[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
Which would indicate the way to end terrorism is to end governments that fund it.

Well, maybe not the whole government. Just the parts that are doing the bad stuff.

Uhm.
Not seein' a path forward from here.

Maybe if I switched genders for a while a fresh viewpoint would evolve.


Hmm, wonder if some alternate gender therapy was *ahem* afforded to some of the warmongers their outlook on life would take a few new turns.

JohnConstantine 01-05-2018 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce (Post 740220)
Agreed.
Which would indicate the way to end terrorism is to end governments that fund it.

Well, maybe not the whole government. Just the parts that are doing the bad stuff.

Uhm.
Not seein' a path forward from here.

Maybe if I switched genders for a while a fresh viewpoint would evolve.


Hmm, wonder if some alternate gender therapy was *ahem* afforded to some of the warmongers their outlook on life would take a few new turns.

It would be interesting to see if this type of therapy actually changes your personality/mode of thinking. I presume once you're a warmonger changing your gender won't matter much -- your base impulses will remain the same.

A Trans Trump for example... more or less bellicose?

Connie 01-05-2018 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnConstantine (Post 740223)
It would be interesting to see if this type of therapy actually changes your personality/mode of thinking. I presume once you're a warmonger changing your gender won't matter much -- your base impulses will remain the same.

A Trans Trump for example... more or less bellicose?

I can tell you it does John.

Nick Pierce 01-05-2018 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie (Post 740224)
I can tell you it does John.

I will take empirical information rather than theoretical musing.

Connie 01-05-2018 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce (Post 740228)
I will take empirical information rather than theoretical musing.

So who better to answer than a transgender?

Nick Pierce 01-05-2018 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie (Post 740231)
So who better to answer than a transgender?

Before this train gets on to a dirt road is it clear that I see you as supplying the "empirical" and John basing his opinion on guesswork?

Connie 01-05-2018 12:18 PM

Ok understood now. I did live it, John did not.

Mohican 01-06-2018 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingtart (Post 740214)
How about having nobody in the military?

How about having no military?

The original idea in the US was to have a very limited standing army, with a navy as the "force projection".

Defense of the homeland was in large measure handled by volunteer militia.

I would prefer a scaled back Army today. IMO, the Air Force is a sky version of the Navy - a force projector.

If we went back to that kind of thinking, and stopped keeping people in far flung places we would save a bit of money and not get into so many police actions.

There is a need for military, and defense. I would like to see it scaled back.

Mohican 01-06-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnConstantine (Post 740223)
It would be interesting to see if this type of therapy actually changes your personality/mode of thinking. I presume once you're a warmonger changing your gender won't matter much -- your base impulses will remain the same.

A Trans Trump for example... more or less bellicose?

IMO Hillary and former president Obama were bellicose. Obama was pretty smooth and underhanded about it (drone strikes, etc) but still....

brianpatrick 01-06-2018 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohican (Post 740264)
IMO Hillary and former president Obama were bellicose. Obama was pretty smooth and underhanded about it (drone strikes, etc) but still....



Donít see how this has anything to say about the OP. Yeah, I Know, the irony!

Neither Obbie nor Hill were transgender.




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JohnConstantine 01-07-2018 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohican (Post 740264)
IMO Hillary and former president Obama were bellicose. Obama was pretty smooth and underhanded about it (drone strikes, etc) but still....

Sure. But the point is -- and it's a weird one granted -- can 'alternate gender' therapy be relied upon to modify someone's personality in a way which made them less inclined to do harm? 😊

So far we've established that an alteration takes place.

What kind of alteration?

Is this alteration one size fits all? -- or, might it be ultimately subjective? -- if it is subjective is there any pattern which might be instructive or are the effects totally random?

And how might we measure said alteration, empirically?

Can anything be said empirically about personality?

Nick Pierce 01-07-2018 12:55 PM

[QUOTE=JohnConstantine

And how might we measure said alteration, empirically?

[/QUOTE]


I'm all for slappin' a pair of double D's onto (into?) the chest of Assad and lettin' him run with that profile for the next five years.

Who knows. Maybe it would help him access a nurturing aspect of his personality that would show him a way to be a more benevolent despot.

brianpatrick 01-07-2018 02:13 PM

transgenders in the military
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnConstantine (Post 740346)
Sure. But the point is -- and it's a weird one granted -- can 'alternate gender' therapy be relied upon to modify someone's personality in a way which made them less inclined to do harm? 😊



So far we've established that an alteration takes place.



What kind of alteration?



Is this alteration one size fits all? -- or, might it be ultimately subjective? -- if it is subjective is there any pattern which might be instructive or are the effects totally random?



And how might we measure said alteration, empirically?



Can anything be said empirically about personality?



Statistically, that would just be male to female, though. Females turning into men would have the opposite effect, presumably.


Edit: unless the woman was already a psychopath, which I think was Moís point, now that I re-read.

JohnConstantine 01-08-2018 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianpatrick (Post 740353)
Edit: unless the woman was already a psychopath, which I think was Moís point, now that I re-read.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Are you saying that statistically there should be no measurable difference in personality (behaviour, say) between trans men (at whatever stage whether it be simply a course of hormone replacements to full op) and biological women?

And then the argument would follow that since men are more aggressive, then statistically the more gender switches from male to female should engender a less violent society?

Interesting theory. The question then I guess is how much of your previous identity might be retained? Like you say if you're already a psycho... does it matter if you change your gender?


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