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Old 04-27-2018, 09:45 AM
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bluewpc (Offline)
The Next Bard
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Sorry for the late reply I was recuperating from sobriety.

There’s some serious word salads in there but I think I gotcha.*

Every man needs a style

In so far as Utopia can be said to exist is in the realisation of an ideology which is forever out of reach. It’s interesting. I mean Utopia can’t exist purely down to the relativity of experience… whose Utopia? But let’s say these visions of Heaven and Hell give us the Zenith and the Nadir as our reference the the good and evil avatars are embodiments of that. The funny thing about that to me is that society has actually more or less never been governed by these avatars. To wit — imagine even in the age of Kings if the general goal really was to emulate Jesus — money would barely matter anymore, the highest desire would be to live some kind of monk life of non-violence and self abnegation. OK there’s more to say about that but you get the point. Kings in general and religious prophets have very little in common (save for perhaps Mohammad).*

Well utopia is relative but not predicated upon the individual. To clarify, I mentioned that utopia is a transit. But thats not quite the right word. I would use migration because transit is a verb thats indifferent to number and direction whereas migration is rhythmical movement of like others towards a single destination. Becaees utopia supposes community and since there is no community of one there cannot be utopia of one.

I take some part of the crucifixion as advocacy that church and state aught keep immured of another. Render unto Caesar. To wit had the state not bowed to religious demands the paraclete would not have been tacked to a pair of 2x4s.

You don’t have to dismiss without merit. But you can dismiss all the same. The same way you would side with Aristotle over Plato when it comes to the perception of things (the former being rational detection through sense data, the latter being mystical pre-life knowledge through some extra-sensory means). Plato on that was all over the place. I’d certainly agree with the first and third conclusions. I think you really need to believe in God in some way to believe that you or someone should be in charge. And those who really want a kind of unmitigated power over the ‘commons’ pretty much exclusively exhibit a deep distrust of the people and suffer of some messiah complex.*

I dont think its necessary to believe in god to believe you should be in charge but it is good to have a model to base your society upon or as I say its good that heaven should reflect your society so its members arent too dissatisfied with it. I think the benefits were immediately apparent. Because without a god a king is not under authority and so theres no recourse if he acts improperly. But if there are gods the king may evoke their ire. Its a safety valve. Our constituion has the same function. Obviously Im oversimplifying but it is an aspect of theocracies that is foregrounded in the legal document.

On the last point I can understand why you would say that but only in the sense that you can drawn parallels between the republic and the modern state in general. But — and I preface this by saying that it’s been a while since I read it… the system described in the Republic is not realised in America simply because in America (especially during its inception) there is a lack of state control over people’s lives and where they should end up in the hierarchy. We could argue that there is some. But in the Republic it’s not just some. What is proposed is that the state decides what you study and the state decides based on that study which class of people you enter into. In this world you couldn’t quit school early and become an entrepreneur. If you don’t master Art and Music (or whatever the first stage is) forget about it — you wash the toilets or something.

I didnt mean that the two republics were the same only like insofar as their conception was attuned to the spirit of the times and product thereof.

Ill get to the rest later

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