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  #61  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:37 AM
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Shelly I thank you for your commits but please stop. my wife says my ego is big enough already and she has to live with me.

thanks anyway.

Max

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  #62  
Old 02-28-2015, 09:23 AM
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I am not a fan of critique because every writing is personal
I don't feel I have it in me to take a piece of work to pieces because everyone is different and also read differently.
I mean imagine we have to critique every book we read.
we would never finish reading and we would definitely miss on the beauty of imperfections.
say someone critique one piece of your work but then I dont agree with it but rather like the original
we are different
where does that leave anyone in the mist of it all?
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:25 AM
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There usually isn't a shortage of people who will read a few paragraphs or a story opening and note inconsistencies or SPAG issues.

There are generally far fewer people who are willing to read a few thousand words and comment on story and characterization.

The people who write longer stories are generally more accomplished writers -- not beginners. That's been true in the "Members Only" section, for the most part -- where I tend to both post and critique. After all, a lot of this is about reciprocation.

These are the factors I take into consideration -- but there is one more. Based on what I read, I make a judgement call on whether or not I can actually help someone -- regardless of how much time and effort I put into it. If I feel I can't, I'll leave it to others who think they can -- and I'll move on to what I think I do best, where I think it's needed. I'm not going to apologize for evaluating writing talent and prioritizing my critiques based on that.

I see it all the time on other forums -- and I've seen it here too and could mention names. There are writers who chose to only critique stories that they feel are at a certain level -- and it's where they feel they can make the best contribution. Most of the time they just stick to the members only type sections of the forum -- and no one thinks anything of it.

It's never occurred to me to judge them as being egotistical or exclusive or unwilling to help the newbie. I've just been grateful for their help when I needed it.

And maybe, at some point that newbie writer will get around to finishing a story or chapter, he'll be at a point where he's past his SPAG issues -- and I'll be more than happy to read and critique his or her work, regardless of length. There's no reason this can't be a tag team effort, with people helping out where they think they can do the most good with the time they have.

It's pretty much that simple. My take on this and what I chose to critique has nothing to do with my ego or thinking I'm too intelligent etc. -- as some here contend. I would have thought all this was evident -- but apparently not. Hence the clarification.

And of course, nothing I've said discounts Max's contribution in any way.

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  #64  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:42 AM
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I have been lax offering critiques and posting my own work as well. This used to be a lively place but lately it has slowed down quite a lot. I assume this is because, like myself, most folks are busy earning livings and working on their assorted projects. I haven't posted any work recently because I haven't done anything that is at a stage to be read by others but hopefully will have something soon. Still, I could be helpful and offer a critique or two once in a while.
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  #65  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:43 AM
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Seems as if we all agree: we each have our own preferences, style of critique, and willingness to critique. All together we keep the critiques going and it's, as Max stated, copacetic. There are very few zeros, and even critiques on stories that I am pretty sure the writer is not returning. So... Yeah we got this yo!
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Old 02-28-2015, 10:59 AM
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did we actually come to some kind of consensus here,

yes I think we did.

I do want to address Nacia's question, I think if a story gets opposing critiques the writer comes away with, what we have just figured out here, everyone is different and the writer can address the things in the critiques that he feels help his style and level.

I'm going to hit the dead horse one more time "but at least he got something to work with."


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  #67  
Old 02-28-2015, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
did we actually come to some kind of consensus here,

yes I think we did.

I do want to address Nacia's question, I think if a story gets opposing critiques the writer comes away with, what we have just figured out here, everyone is different and the writer can address the things in the critiques that he feels help his style and level.

I'm going to hit the dead horse one more time "but at least he got something to work with."


Max
I think that is the main thing--at least getting something to work with. It can be very disheartening to post and not get any response at all. I would even take a "This crap sucks!" just to know that someone actually took the time to read my work.
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:27 AM
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I agree that not getting a critique is disheartening, and I completely respect the opinion. My only thought is that if someone is going to quit instead of persevering they aren't worth the time of a reader anyway. Plus when they do... You know what I said this previously... No sense in boring the reader, so here's a joke-

Heisenberg gets pulled over by a police officer.
Officer: Do you know how fast you were going?
Heisenberg: No, but I know where I am.

Day drinking helps with my AA meetings...
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  #69  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by daes13 View Post
I agree that not getting a critique is disheartening, and I completely respect the opinion. My only thought is that if someone is going to quit instead of persevering they aren't worth the time of a reader anyway. Plus when they do... You know what I said this previously... No sense in boring the reader, so here's a joke-

Heisenberg gets pulled over by a police officer.
Officer: Do you know how fast you were going?
Heisenberg: No, but I know where I am.

Day drinking helps with my AA meetings...
what is
Day Drinking??

oh and I really enjoyed reading Heisenberg haha
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
(gasp) Enrigo, are we jumping to the conclusion that Ashley is not going to critique others work or that maybe the critique is worthless because of inexperience; only 6 post.
Was that an attempt at sarcasm? If not then you may want to revisit the last line in my post.

Originally Posted by max crash
are you doing critiques?
I have been not-really-here for a few weeks but I don't remember any of your work. i'll go check after I post this.
I didn’t realize that this conversation was about me but since you seem to want to move it in that direction I feel the need to explain a few things. First and foremost is that writing is a hobby for me. I don’t have dreams of being published or of writing the great American novel. My writing is primarily meant for myself, my family, and my friends. Secondly, I do have a very busy personal life which involves running a business; not to mention a family made up of a wife, a couple of daughters, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. And lastly, writing is not my only hobby. There are other interests that I pursue. So you see, not all who comes here are here for the same reasons that you are.

I know that it has been mentioned many times on this site and I am sure you are also well-aware of the fact that it does take a lot of time to do a proper critique, and time is something I rarely have. If you are making a judgment on my participation based on the number of posts I have made versus the years I have been here then should I assume that you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of? I would think that someone like you would welcome any participation.

Originally Posted by max crash
you can't fix something if you don't know what is broke.
Agreed, but where we differ is the process of fixing. I am of the opinion that the old adage “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime” applies here. You seem to feel that the best way to teach is by pointing out their mistakes in a particular piece. I can agree with that as long as that is the only piece that they intend to write. If their intention is to improve overall, I feel that they would be better served by studying a multitude of different critiques done for pieces that have already been posted. And then take the knowledge gained from that and apply it to their own work. Once they are “somewhat comfortable” in their ability to critique their own work then they should start posting that work and begin doing critiques of other’s work thereby allowing the quality of critiques to go up and the education of the writer to advance beyond the beginning level.


Originally Posted by max crash
I will add that I am very pleased that we finally got some new blood into this discussion. I am also pleased that it is in essence one vote for each side of the argument. I need the critique and I'll figure it out for myself - I think it demonstrates very well that there are two lines of thought on the subject and I believe we should gravitate to the lowest common denominator. just write a critique.

Max
While I can agree with most of what you say here I do have to disagree with the “gravitate to the lowest denominator” statement. I feel that is how a lot of bad advice gets spread around. For me, it is much more about quality than quantity.

I understand that new writers need encouragement and that it is predominately noted by the number of responses they get. For people like me that encouragement comes from family and friends. Others may not be so lucky and for them there are people like you. This is one of the rare things I can agree with Shelly on. Your ability to persevere is admirable and necessary.

But this website has multiple purposes and encouragement is only one of them. It has a wealth of information on the writing process and if people would just take the time to go through and study what is already here their writing would improve tenfold.
And then there are people like me. I would rather wait for 6 months to a year and comment on things that I have some knowledge on than to try and offer advice on a subject I know little about. This website has more than enough room for both types of thinking.
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  #71  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
what is
Day Drinking??

oh and I really enjoyed reading Heisenberg haha
It's when you greet the sunrise with whiskey in your coffee and continue to drink all day. It helps if you have had a god awful week.
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  #72  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by daes13 View Post
It's when you greet the sunrise with whiskey in your coffee and continue to drink all day. It helps if you have had a god awful week.
I have had whiskey and coffee in the evenings or early mornings coming out of night clubs but never sharp upon wakenings
it sounds rather interesting thanks for the tip
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  #73  
Old 02-28-2015, 01:22 PM
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Erigo, didn't mean to piss you off dude, I just call them the way I see them and once you got to know me then you'll know that.

the last sentence in you post did try to take the discussion into generalizes and away from a single subject.

it was also sort of like saying sorry I cut your finger off.

and just so you will understand, I live in a compound, village, tribe - what ever you want to call it with three of my four sons and there kids, twelve grandkids, other in my extended family live very close we have our own school and two teachers.
we have cows and horses and chickens and ducks and geese. it's a lot of work and I don't have a lot of time either.

but a critique doesn't have to be time consuming, it just has to be above the critiquee's level. they learn and then they get better.
I know you are in the line that says "they need to dig it out for them self" but some people just are not self starters. you say you run a business, ok then you know that some of the people you hire just need more attention to get the hang of things than others. it's the same deal here.

on another subject, critiquing a post that you believe is a one time deal, I just did that and I offered some advise with the option to do an more in-depth critique if they corrected their spacing problem, that was two days ago, I've heard nothing back so I don't think I am going to have to do the critique.
but I did offer and if they are not interested then it's not my fault.

it cost me less than fifteen minutes of my time.

I hope you don't get to pissed off with me, but if you stick around it won't be the last time I ruffle your feathers.

peace is the answer. (damn that sounded like Shelly, sorry joe)

Max
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  #74  
Old 02-28-2015, 02:46 PM
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BTW -- the whole "I'm not qualified to critique" is a cop out.

If you're here and posting your own work, then presumably, you can read a story and offer an honest opinion and say what works for you and what doesn't.

If that's why say you're holding back and not offering more detailed critiques, I call B.S.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 02-28-2015 at 03:18 PM..
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
BTW -- the whole "I'm not qualified to critique" is a cop out.

If you're here and posting your own work, then presumably, you can read a story and offer an honest opinion and say what works for you and what doesn't.

If that's why you're holding back and not offering more detailed critiques, I call B.S.
For a thirty something year old with nothing better to do but to try to fry my azz, I can tell you this: that behavior isn't normal. Maybe, you ought to start turning your attention on yourself.

I post just for kicks. I don't take writing serious. Actually, writing keeps my mind youthful. I'm not looking for feedback. Why are you trying to get people to pay a toll (critique); it's done from the heart. Kind people do it. You ride people who disagree with you too much. Why? You must know.

In your mind "I'm full of shit" and nothing will yank you from that belief. Sad. Tragically sad. The thought of being "so boxed in" gives me shivers.

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Old 02-28-2015, 03:36 PM
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You've got it backwards.

I'm not talking about you asking for feedback. It's about you pointing your finger at people -- telling them what and how they should critique and making value judgments about them when you don't do it yourself -- and then making weak excuses for it.

But it's like your former mayor, Ed Koch said: "I can explain it to you, but I can't comprehend it for you."
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
For a thirty something year old with nothing better to do but to try to fry my azz, I can tell you this: that behavior isn't normal. Maybe, you ought to start turning your attention on yourself.

I post just for kicks. I don't take writing serious. Actually, writing keeps my mind youthful. I'm not looking for feedback. Why are you trying to get people to pay a toll (critique); it's done from the heart. Kind people do it. You ride people who disagree with you too much. Why? You must know.

In your mind "I'm full of shit" and nothing will yank you from that belief. Sad. Tragically sad. The thought of being "so boxed in" gives me shivers.
Shelly I agree I am the same I post just for kicks
perfect and it is the best thing ever.
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
You've got it backwards.

I'm not talking about you asking for feedback. It's about you pointing your finger at people -- telling them what and how they should critique and making value judgments about them when you don't do it yourself -- and then making weak excuses for it.

But it's like your former mayor, Ed Koch said: "I can explain it to you, but I can't comprehend it for you."
"full of shit," "Weak excuses," "Liar," "etc.," "etc." Man, broken record.



Weak excuses? I'm not saying things to please you. Who are you anyway? This isn't your website. You're just a member like everyone else...nothing more nothing less.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
Shelly I agree I am the same I post just for kicks
perfect and it is the best thing ever.
Nacia, you're like finding a pool of refreshingly cool water in a steaming desert. You're the best!!!
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
"full of shit," "Weak excuses," "Liar," "etc.," "etc." Man, broken record.



Weak excuses? I'm not saying things to please you. Who are you anyway? This isn't your website. You're just a member like everyone else...nothing more nothing less.
Heh. I've never called you liar. I have pointed out that you say one thing and then do another -- this thread is just one more example.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
Heh. I've never called you liar. I have pointed out that you say one thing and then do another -- this thread is just one more example.
You want me to start digging up stuff you called me? "Liar" is one of the more pleasant words you have used.

Anyhow, we aren't adding anything constructive to this thread...so, let's just kiss and say good bye.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
Heh. I've never called you liar. I have pointed out that you say one thing and then do another -- this thread is just one more example.
Joe how would you define your persona if you had to according to the picture attached to your avatar?
Just curious.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
You want me to start digging up stuff you called me? "Liar" is one of the more pleasant words you have used.
Dig away. I'd love to see it.
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:04 PM
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Joe, Shelly, am I really going to have to put up with your adolescent bickering, i'll tell you what i'll start new thread just so you two can entertain the troops with your bickering.

i'll call it listen to Joe and Shelly make fools of themselves.

now contribute to the post or go to the new thread I just created.

max
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
Joe, Shelly, am I really going to have to put up with your adolescent bickering, i'll tell you what i'll start new thread just so you two can entertain the troops with your bickering.

i'll call it listen to Joe and Shelly make fools of themselves.
That's sounds like a great idea. Go for it!
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Old 03-01-2015, 01:54 AM
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("...no I actually prefer the hijack myself..." went the goblin only wishing to be positive though, adding "...so can I place my money on Shelley there more as in showing some solidarity in wrongness then...", for it was not without reason the goblin was sure that no one would ever trust his judgment if he were actually allowed to review anything now, smiling "...besides, I know how you write since I've seen your posts by now, whereas if your posts are not up to your books then doesn't that save me the bother of reviewing anything for your not having seen all these readers around you now...")

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Old 03-01-2015, 05:05 AM
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Interesting thread. The beginning really set the scene for everything that followed, and although it started to plod a bit during the middle segments, it did suddenly burst into life again once it got towards the end. Some of the characters were a little one dimensional, and the dialogue was completely unrealistic, but overall, a very good read. Keep it up.
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Old 03-01-2015, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
Joe, Shelly, am I really going to have to put up with your adolescent bickering, i'll tell you what i'll start new thread just so you two can entertain the troops with your bickering.

i'll call it listen to Joe and Shelly make fools of themselves.

now contribute to the post or go to the new thread I just created.

max
You didn't start this thread Max. You are starting to give me the impression of a control freak. If you want to silence people (other than yourself), you can apply to be a moderator...then put your foot down when you see fit. You have no authority to chase others away because of a "little mild elbowing." It isn't as though a war is taking place.

You have the same choices as everyone else: participate or ignore.
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Old 03-01-2015, 05:19 AM
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rincewind, not to be obtuse - oh why not.

did you actually read this thread or just post some canned critique that you keep on word?

Max
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Old 03-01-2015, 05:28 AM
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shelly if you are going to participate, we want to hear your pertinent commits, and yes there is a time and place for a little elbowing - this isn't it.

and yes I am a control freak. and very proud of it.

but this side discussion is not about control it's about common courtesy to the other participants to stay on subject.

sorry if you were offended.

Max
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