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Lolita?!

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Old 04-24-2012, 02:42 AM
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Default Lolita?!


contreversial or not?
do books such as these have a place in main stream?
Please note this is not in any way saying or encouraging anyone not to read it this purely for discussion.

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Old 04-24-2012, 02:53 AM
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Yes, they should absolutely. Just because a subject is uncomfortable does not mean it should be avoided.

Lolita is a fantastic and (to my mind) classic piece of literature. Beautifully written and more importantly it makes you think!

You know all along whats happening is wrong but it's written so cleverly that the story actually paints the MC as the victim and Lolita as, well not quite a villan, but I personally felt she was a sopiled brat.

It's not until you get to the end of the book where the MC starts to reflect on his actions that you really see him for what he was.

This book left me examining my thoughts about the story long after I'd finished reading it.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
contreversial or not?
and should books such as these allowed to make it main stream?
Allowed?

The alternative is censorship.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
Allowed?

The alternative is censorship.
Censorship? I do not think it is the way forward because of it only gives it more reason to want to read it.
What do you make of it?
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Redlorry View Post
Yes, they should absolutely. Just because a subject is uncomfortable does not mean it should be avoided.

Lolita is a fantastic and (to my mind) classic piece of literature. Beautifully written and more importantly it makes you think!

You know all along whats happening is wrong but it's written so cleverly that the story actually paints the MC as the victim and Lolita as, well not quite a villan, but I personally felt she was a sopiled brat.

It's not until you get to the end of the book where the MC starts to reflect on his actions that you really see him for what he was.

This book left me examining my thoughts about the story long after I'd finished reading it.
I can appreciate what you mean but I feel I could not go along with it because I felt it wrong it too wrong...but then each reader is different.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:21 AM
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I havent read the book so I don't have an opinion on it.

But I am curious about whether you think it shouldnt be "allowed", Nacia, and why. Because, going by your responses to some of the other comments, it looks like you don't.

And if thats the case, then where do we begin to draw the line on which kind of books are allowed and which arent? Because thats what censorship is - deciding what should be allowed based on the morals or ideals of a certain group of people, namely those in control of the censoring.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:22 AM
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If you can think it, write it. Good taste in how you write the piece makes all the difference.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:32 AM
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I agree with CandraH. If you are reading something that you don't like or stop enjoying, then stop reading it. But you can't tell others they shouldn't read it based on your views, morals or ideals.

For me, I hate rape. I can't watch, read or hear about it without it playing on my mind for a considerable amount of time.

Therefore, I know I won't enjoy 'The Lovely Bones' and have avoided reading it. I know others have read it and found it to be a very moving story, but I personally won't be able to get past a rape scene to see it that way. I would tell anyone why I won't read it, but it's not for me to tell others they shouldn't read it because of how I feel.

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Old 04-24-2012, 04:35 AM
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If we would not allow books like Lolita, or Belinda, or Catcher in the Rye, or Mein Kampf to be published, we would not be able to decide for ourselves if the subject is suitable to our taste.
It would indeed reek of censorship. I say, let it all be written and published.

Education is the basis of common sense and if there would be no books on dubious subjects, how would we be able to educate our children and ourselves?
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CandraH View Post
I havent read the book so I don't have an opinion on it.

But I am curious about whether you think it shouldnt be "allowed", Nacia, and why. Because, going by your responses to some of the other comments, it looks like you don't.

And if thats the case, then where do we begin to draw the line on which kind of books are allowed and which arent? Because thats what censorship is - deciding what should be allowed based on the morals or ideals of a certain group of people, namely those in control of the censoring.
I would not discourage and tell anybody not to read it that is not my role but what I would do like now is discuss it to see what others make of it.
May the wording of my post is perhaps not adequately worded and so I will change it.
About being allowed it I meant is it fair for children to be exposed in this way,and read about in a pervese sexual manner?
whilst I recognize it literary brilliancy as many have put it , I would not go pass not saying that the topic in which it is being written in inappropriate for children and adults well to me anyway.
That is not to say you are not going to find it yourself most interesting and I would respect your opinion on it I however would chose to withdraw from reading it myself simply because I prefer to draw the line on certain issues . I w ould not forsake art for the sake of art if you see what I mean and so there are times and limits I set myself and I am happy with it.
I think any material that uses children in topic of literature such as this book is in my views unerving and bordering on inadequacy.
I would not wish on any child to be used in this way and I think my position in life has always been and is this
if it is not good enough/safe for a child to read then it is not good enough/safe for me.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
I would not wish on any child to be used in this way and I think my position in life has always been and is this
if it is not good enough/safe for a child to read then it is not good enough/safe for me.
There's a big difference between what one reads oneself and what one permits ones children to read. I wouldn't encourage a child to read the book but by the same token, its not a childish book; by the time you can read and appreciate the language (I tried and gave up after 2 pages when I was 12 or 13) you're old enough to handle the content.

It's a book. That's all. As far as I'm aware, reading a book never turned an ordinary person into a pedophile, or caused a child lasting harm.

Nabokov is a master of linguistics and couches terrible desires and acts within artful wordplay; he seduces the reader as surely as Humbert seduces Lolita, and you become complicit in his crimes.

The book is about a lot of things and Nabakov uses Humbert's obsession with Lolita to explore cultural differences, the nature of desire, the fallibility of psychology and of course alienation.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:10 AM
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Mike C;491943]There's a big difference between what one reads oneself and what one permits ones children to read. I wouldn't encourage a child to read the book but by the same token, its not a childish book; by the time you can read and appreciate the language (I tried and gave up after 2 pages when I was 12 or 13) you're old enough to handle the content.

It's a book. That's all. As far as I'm aware, reading a book never turned an ordinary person into a pedophile, or caused a child lasting harm.
Of course that is your opinion and I do respect it but mine is slightely different in that that I have children and therefore a book like this will never enter my house because I have children.
For me to read it and then forbid it for children to not is silightly hyporocrytical of me so I decide not to for this very reason.
If it is not child friendly/safe then it is not for me. It makes life easier for me.
Nabokov is a master of linguistics and couches terrible desires and acts within artful wordplay; he seduces the reader as surely as Humbert seduces Lolita, and you become complicit in his crimes.
Yep and that is exactly my point is that I do not wish to be complicit in a crime such as this.
The book is about a lot of things and Nabakov uses Humbert's obsession with Lolita to explore cultural differences, the nature of desire, the fallibility of psychology and of course alienation.
I am not sure whether I totally agree that child sexual exploitations has anything to do with culture or desires, I think it is deeper then that and much more twisted then one wishes to let out.
Again this is my opinion.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
For me to read it and then forbid it for children to not is silightly hyporocrytical of me so I decide not to for this very reason.
Then I assume you have no books with adult themes in the house, no alcohol, and you turn off the TV if there's a program that has any kind of adult theme, even if the kids are in bed? It would be hypocritical to do anything less.

Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
I am not sure whether I totally agree that child sexual exploitations has anything to do with culture or desires, I think it is deeper then that and much more twisted then one wishes to let out.
Again this is my opinion.
Your opinion is invalid because you haven't read the book. Child exploitation has nothing to do with culture, but everything to do with desire. That does not mean that the book has to feature a rape scene on every page. Humbert is a European abroad in the New World; he sneers at American life, while Lolita's mother is in awe of his Old World sophistication and charm.

Nobody has to get fucked to convey that.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:13 AM
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There'll always be a need for some things to be censored, because there are people who know where the nuclear silos are, and because even if I happened to know Mike C's home phone number, I shouldn't be allowed to post it here.

There are certainly examples of sexual content involving children that should not be published. Lolita seems okay to me, though.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
There'll always be a need for some things to be censored...

There are certainly examples of sexual content involving children that should not be published.
Does that apply to fiction?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Redlorry View Post
I agree with CandraH. If you are reading something that you don't like or stop enjoying, then stop reading it. But you can't tell others they shouldn't read it based on your views, morals or ideals.

For me, I hate rape. I can't watch, read or hear about it without it playing on my mind for a considerable amount of time.

Therefore, I know I won't enjoy 'The Lovely Bones' and have avoided reading it. I know others have read it and found it to be a very moving story, but I personally won't be able to get past a rape scene to see it that way. I would tell anyone why I won't read it, but it's not for me to tell others they shouldn't read it because of how I feel.
The first time I read The Lovely Bones I thought it was overall a good book (tho I thught it dragged a bit in places) and had no problem with it. The second time I read it I kept picturing my eldest DD as the victim and I had to put it down. I later threw the book out as I couldn't even look at it. A little over the top, I know, but it really bothered me the second time--maybe because DD was closer in age to the main character the second time around.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:39 AM
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Ultimately, it is up to the parents to filter what they deem to be appropriate and inappropriate for their child. I don't want anyone making that decision for me. I was myself very upset at my eldest DD's school for showing the movie The Patriot to her without asking my consent. She was 10 yrs old at the time and I can remember how disturbing I found the scene to be where the townsfolk were burned alive in the church. I didn't want her to see something like that and felt I should have been consulted first.

As for the book, as has been stated before, it is not intended for children to read. There are kid books and there are adult books. Most people can tell the difference and wouldn't allow their child to read adult oriented material--at the least the ones who are capable of pulling the cell phone away from their ear for longer than two seconds probably wouldn't. I personally can't imagine not reading something that interested me simply because I wouldn't let my kids read it. Seems rather silly to me, not meaning to offend anyone....
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by donnaf View Post
Ultimately, it is up to the parents to filter what they deem to be appropriate and inappropriate for their child. I don't want anyone making that decision for me. I was myself very upset at my eldest DD's school for showing the movie The Patriot to her without asking my consent. She was 10 yrs old at the time and I can remember how disturbing I found the scene to be where the townsfolk were burned alive in the church. I didn't want her to see something like that and felt I should have been consulted first.

As for the book, as has been stated before, it is not intended for children to read. There are kid books and there are adult books. Most people can tell the difference and wouldn't allow their child to read adult oriented material--at the least the ones who are capable of pulling the cell phone away from their ear for longer than two seconds probably wouldn't. I personally can't imagine not reading something that interested me simply because I wouldn't let my kids read it. Seems rather silly to me, not meaning to offend anyone....
Hi donnaf what DD mean?
I agree that lots of schools are failing to meet the children's safety standards when it comes to things like this.
I would have taken it up and put it in writing.
About reading I can only read what I deem adequate because I have children.
Nobokv and Lolita do not interest because I consider the topic contreversial and so ignorance is bliss in this case and also I would not want to be held into account if any of my children asked me about it then I would have to be honest and so I would much prefer to say no I have not read it for the reasons I stated above and that way this would make sure they won't read it either because I would not want them to . Children learn from their parents, they would do exactly what I do and so by not going there they won't won't go there either.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
...ignorance is bliss...
Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
Children learn from their parents...
That's quite some education your kids are getting.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
That's quite some education your kids are getting.
what about? the fact that I did not agree on Lolita as a book because it is a perverse book or the fact that some stuff is best left alone?
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
what about? the fact that I did not agree on Lolita as a book because it is a perverse book or the fact that some stuff is best left alone?
The latter. Or do you shield them from newspapers and TV news too, and from talking to other kids? And will you continue to do so until they leave home?
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:57 AM
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While you're at it, better make sure you have no shakespeare on your bookshelves; suicide, murder, disfigurement, rape... all human life is there.

Better throw out the Harry Potter too. People die. Bad shit happens. To children.

Best of all, don't teach your kids to read at all - then, if ignorance truly is bliss your kids will be in raptures.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
Children learn from their parents, they would do exactly what I do and so by not going there they won't won't go there either.
I can't help feeling that you've got this wrong. Yes children learn from their parents, but where they can't learn from them, either because their parents won't or can't answer their questions, then they will find their own answers.

As a parent myself I feel it's dangerous to educate my children through ignorance.

As for the question of whether books like Lolita have a place in the mainstream. Yes.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
Does that apply to fiction?
I'll assume that by "fiction" you mean "printed prose fiction without illustrations", since it clearly does apply to films, TV programmes, comic books, etc.

It doesn't apply to any such fiction that I've ever read. I can imagine the possibility of certain extreme passages that I might think should be censored.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:46 PM
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Lolita is not a peverse book! It is a book about humanity. And as we all know not all humanity is decent.

If you have not read the wholebook you may have missed that although what Humbert did was wrong, Lolita was not against using the situation to her advantge.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
That's quite some education your kids are getting.
My kids are well educated believe me. Education is not solely reliant on books.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
While you're at it, better make sure you have no shakespeare on your bookshelves; suicide, murder, disfigurement, rape... all human life is there
.
Well to tell you the truth it is very hard for me to stop them from witnessing all these herrendous stuff because it is on the news/tv/media/outside all the time it literally surrounds you whether you like or not.
I would not want to add to their distress by giving them more of it in a form a book. I think you can appreciate where I am coming. All this you mention happen on a daily whether you step your doorstep or you don't. One place I can think of the top of my head is school , a perfect place where bullying goes on.That is one form of abuse.
My kids are well aware of what is going on they do not need shakespeare to tell them all about it. Reading about it will only make it worse. So no Lolita for me or them I am afraid.
Better throw out the Harry Potter too. People die. Bad shit happens. To children.

Best of all, don't teach your kids to read at all - then, if ignorance truly is bliss your kids will be in raptures.
[/QUOTE]
Haha...too late they are ahead of their time with reading and writing but one thing they are not is ignorant.
Now how about PS3 and the violent gaming worlds. Who needs books when they can sit and play violence in front of a screen?
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
I would not want to add to their distress by giving them more of it in a form a book.
I'm not suggesting you do. I'm saying that your reason for not owning a book is stupid. People have hard cor pornography in their homes - doesnt mean they're going to show it to the kids.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:39 AM
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There's this book called Reading Lolita in Tehran that captures the whole forbidden fruit aspect of reading a book such as that in a country where it's not allowed. Pick it up, it's definitely worth it.
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Old 04-28-2012, 04:22 PM
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It's not really about forbidden fruit - if that's your angle you'll probably get a buzz out of kiddie porn. It's about literature.
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