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Mental Illness

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Old 06-18-2015, 12:59 PM
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Default Mental Illness


The murders of the people in the church recently trots out all the same issues that are covered every time a horrible event like this happens. Because it was in a primarily Afro-American church and the perpetrator was a young white man - it was a hate crime. Or it was due to the attacker’s mental illness. Or because of the ease of obtaining a gun. Or a combination of all of these problems.

I was working in the mental health system during the "70's" and saw first hand society’s choice to give the mentally ill the right to refuse all treatment including all medications and involuntary commitment. Having worked on a locked ward in a V.A. hospital that cared for people that became mentally ill during their service time, I saw the good and evil that such a facility could perform on their patients.

The V.A. system was broken then as it remains now. But the mentally ill got some kind of treatment and were humanely treated for the most part and society was protected from the violence they could do. But instead of fixing the system and private mental health facilities, the systems were thrown out.

People who were clearly not in their right mind were allowed to decide whether to accept treatment or reject it. Many went from restrictive but clean and human situations to life as homeless people un-cared for and invisible until they inflicted violence on themselfs or others. Then hand are wrung and consciences are searched - why wasn’t something done? Weren’t the warning signs clear? We better institute strict gun laws so that "these people" can’t get them and wreak havoc on an unsuspecting public.

Gun laws - right or wrong- are not going to fix the problem. Even on a locked ward a pencil or a chair or nearly anything can be a deadly weapon. It is the people that do the violence that must be addressed. The mental health systems must be replaced and improved. If some one is shown to be in need of mental health services and is incapable of understanding and cooperating with them, then they must be compelled under the law to receive them. It is society’s responsibility to protect all its members - including the members that can’t be responsible for themselfs.

In this high pressure world, all of us must be concerned with each other. We need to be watching for aberrant behavior as much or more than texting or goggling answers to questions. We also must support mental health programs not as an invasion of personal liberty but as a pathway to responsible liberty.

Without a strong but humane mental health system we are doomed to be victims of more and more senseless violence.

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Old 06-18-2015, 08:29 PM
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You are throwing Advil at the headache instead of looking for the real problem. We do that a lot.

The first problem is: why do we expect young men we send away to kill the enemy, to come back sane? We train them to kill other humans for whatever reason, then expect them to come back here and be normal. Just blend back into society like nothing they experienced was real.

We run a civilized society over the top of barbarism, and expect that nobody will look under the covers. Does this make any sense to anybody?

It appears this young man who shot those people was not mentally ill, but probably just stupid and easily influenced by a sub-cultural bias prevalent in many retardo-villes here in America.

Black, white, fuck you!!

It's US... all of us...
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:23 AM
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The military is the tip of the iceberg. Stress and worry erode the defenses insuring mental stability. Then there's the addictions to alcohol, drugs, and pornography which can send mental health spiraling. Then the big boy: greed. Unlike a lone gunman shooting up a church or a school, those inflicted with greed kill tens of thousands worldwide going unnoticed, not even causing a ripple. Greed is insanity masqueraded as sanity. You don't have to travel far to get to your "retardoville." Just look inside you to see what's making you tick. You just might be the mayor of the sick town.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:31 AM
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If you follow the money, you can see the root of many problems -- including the way we treat our mentally ill and our veterans and policies that take our military into useless conflicts in the first place.

Of course, greed is behind it all -- and anyone with an iota of sense can see that. But standing up on soapbox and sermonizing about greed instead of identifying and dealing with specific problems that we could potentially solve is utterly useless and adds nothing to the debate.

And no one ever committed a mass murder because of alcohol, drugs, and pornography. Please. Some percentage of the population will always be affected by addiction -- it's a completely different issue.

But that's what always happens when we have these tragedies. Some people use them to climb up on a soapbox and holler and whine about whatever thing they've got stuck in their craw, whether it's relevant or not. They do a disservice to the victims and everyone involved.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 06-19-2015 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:41 AM
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BWT -- I did some pro bono work for an organization that provides services to the mentally ill who live in group homes. Just some basic research -- and I learned about the court decisions that led to more rights granted to the mentally ill -- and how those coupled with the Reagan administration cuts to mental healthcare led to the situation we're in.

None of it's a mystery. If you're going to write about this kind of stuff and you don't make some attempt to even try to talk about the basic facts -- why bother? You're insulting your audience. Even if you have the knowledge, it amounts to nothing more than some half-informed dumbass calling into a talk show.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
If you follow the money, you can see the root of many problems -- including the way we treat our mentally ill and our veterans and policies that take our military into useless conflicts in the first place.

Of course, greed is behind it all -- and anyone with an iota of sense can see that. But standing up on soapbox and sermonizing about greed instead of identifying and dealing with specific problems that we could potential solve is utterly useless and adds nothing to the debate.

And no one ever committed a mass murder because of alcohol, drugs, and pornography. Please. Some percentage of the population will always be affected by addiction -- it's a completely different issue.

But that's what always happens when we have these tragedies. Some people use them to climb up on a soapbox and holler and whine about whatever thing they've got stuck in their craw, whether it's relevant or not. They do a disservice to the victims and everyone involved.
You're like a mouse. Throw out a small piece of cheese and you come scurrying for it. You ever hear of Charlie Manson. Drugs and mass murder... that's just one of probably hundreds.

Joe, I don't whine. I'm not a spoiled brat, never was. The starter of the thread worked in this field. He has a lot more experience than you ever will with the mentally disturbed. You're like a frog trying to teach a robin to fly. You're simply to much.

The only victims are the people you constantly try to put down. You're not to be taken seriously. Get out of your globe and enter the real world.

Why can't you ever say, "You're right. greed has a role in it." Instead, the put-down negativity spews from your brain like water from a hydrant. You're a sad joke, programmed to run negativity.


The loss of a single life is a tragedy to the family members. You want to talk about tragedies and mentally ill, while just look at the Middle East. Hundreds of thousands of tragedies and millions displaced and fools like you saying everything is rosy.

Last edited by Cityboy; 06-19-2015 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:35 PM
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What that shooter needed was prayer and meditation and the pure love of Jesus!

By they way -- how's the weather in retardo-ville?
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
The loss of a single life is a tragedy to the family members. You want to talk about tragedies and mentally ill, while just look at the Middle East. Hundreds of thousands of tragedies and millions displaced and fools like you saying everything is rosy.
More beside the point preaching. And I never said or implied everything was rosy. So amazingly stupid.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
BWT -- I did some pro bono work for an organization that provides services to the mentally ill who live in group homes. Just some basic research -- and I learned about the court decisions that led to more rights granted to the mentally ill -- and how those coupled with the Reagan administration cuts to mental healthcare led to the situation we're in.

None of it's a mystery. If you're going to write about this kind of stuff and you don't make some attempt to even try to talk about the basic facts -- why bother? You're insulting your audience. Even if you have the knowledge, it amounts to nothing more than some half-informed dumbass calling into a talk show.
You know squat compared to the thread starter. You're like a frog trying to teach a robin to fly. He isn't insulting anyone. You're the one barging into this thread trying to insult him. You're blind to your own actions ... pitiful.

The Gospel according to Joe.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
More beside the point preaching. And I never said or implied everything was rosy. So amazingly stupid.
More stupid advice.

1. Alcohol alters your brain chemistry

Our brains rely on a delicate balance of chemicals and processes. Alcohol is a depressant, which means it can disrupt that balance, affecting our thoughts, feelings and actions – and sometimes our long-term mental health. This is partly down to ‘neurotransmitters’, chemicals that help to transmit signals from one nerve (or neuron) in the brain to another.
The relaxed feeling you can get when you have that first drink is due to the chemical changes alcohol has caused in your brain. For many of us, a drink can help us feel more confident and less anxious. That’s because it’s starting to depress the part of the brain we associate with inhibition.
But, as you drink more, more of the brain starts to be affected. It doesn’t matter what mood you’re in to start with, when high levels of alcohol are involved, instead of pleasurable effects increasing, it’s possible that a negative emotional response will take over. You could become angry, aggressive, anxious or depressed.

-=---------

Rep. Patrick Kennedy's release from drug rehab puts a spotlight on people who suffer from a trying combination of health problems: substance abuse and a mental health disorder.
Kennedy -- the son of Sen. Edward Kennedy -- checked into a rehab clinic in May 2006 after a car accident near the U.S. Capitol. The younger Kennedy says he has no memory of the incident; he admits he had taken medications usually prescribed for sleep problems and to control nausea.
After his release from rehab, Kennedy told reporters he suffers from addiction and bipolar disorder.
Doctors say they are increasingly seeing patients from all walks of life who suffer from a combination of substance abuse and mental health problems. Experts estimate that at least 60% of people battling one of these conditions are battling both.

"Mental health problems and substance abuse are often seen together because one makes you more vulnerable to the other," says Alan Manevitz, MD, a psychiatrist with New York-Presbyterian Hospital, Cornell University campus, in New York.

Mental health problems are common in the U.S. An estimated 1 in 5 adults in the U.S. suffers from a diagnosable mental disorder, according to the National Institute of Metal Health.
When there is a biological or genetic vulnerability to any type of mental health problem, regardless of how big or small, Manevitz says, substance use often triggers the onset of that problem.
"The substance is not really causing the mental health problem, but it can be a precipitating factor that causes the condition to manifest," Manevitz tells WebMD.
"In this respect, the mental health condition is already actively present when the substance abuse begins, but the patient just doesn't know it -- the problem is driving the addiction, it just hasn't yet been recognized or diagnosed," Manevitz tells WebMD.
It is, in fact, the increasing awareness of this dual diagnosis that has opened the door to a whole new line of thinking about both substance abuse and mental health problems. Indeed, some researchers contend that certain forms of mental illness and some addictions may, in fact, be a single disease.

Last edited by Cityboy; 06-19-2015 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:00 PM
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Are you serious? No shit. That has nothing to do with why people commit mass shootings.

Sometimes it's fun, but I'm not in the mood to deal with your idiocy right now. I'd rather go sit in traffic.

Later.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
What that shooter needed was prayer and meditation and the pure love of Jesus!

By they way -- how's the weather in retardo-ville?
You're a jerk. I hope you're childless.

Even Jesus in your psycho game.

Last edited by Cityboy; 06-19-2015 at 01:51 PM..
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:40 PM
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So which is he, a mouse or a frog?

Either way, maybe he should go find the 'hoary ape' and have a party.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:14 PM
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you kids like to argue so have fun but the one next to you who needs treatment may kill you.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:20 PM
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I think i'll go investigate the case further before I tell them both they are coloring just a little outside the lines.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tor View Post
you kids like to argue so have fun but the one next to you who needs treatment may kill you.

Just as likely a small meteor will hit me directly on the head and kill me.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:50 PM
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ok, according to the press, this 21 year old guy had a pending court date for passion of suboxone, a drug used to treat withdrawal symptoms from opiates.

I can't find anything on this drug causing mental illness. the lack of the drug may have sent him back to the "opiates' which is not necessarily opium or one of the may drugs associated with opium.

so in my opinion this was a deranged drugie with a bone to pick with the black community.

and the gun laws were in place to prevent him from buying a gun legally. he was waiting for a court hearing and the way I read this, to be indicted. sense he was yet indicted he could have bought a gun legally, but his father gave him a gun for his birthday and he could have bought one from an individual if he had of been indicted.

this is going to hit the 'lack 'of gun laws for person-to-person sales and gun shows.

but given his statements he was also a racist, drugie, just looking to kill some one. so he may be insane according to ' you have to be insane to kill.'
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:00 PM
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He might be insane according to a liberal definition, but I think he was more likely just stupid and easily led.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:06 PM
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There are millions of people addicted to opioids. If they had anything to do with people committing mass shootings, the streets would be awash with blood. That doesn't mean some people who are mentally ill aren't addicted and that they don't try to self-medicate with drugs -- but the idea that it's a direct cause of violence in cases like this is moronic -- never mind the alcohol and pornography.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 06-19-2015 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
You're like a mouse. Throw out a small piece of cheese and you come scurrying for it. You ever hear of Charlie Manson. Drugs and mass murder... that's just one of probably hundreds.

Joe, I don't whine. I'm not a spoiled brat, never was. The starter of the thread worked in this field. He has a lot more experience than you ever will with the mentally disturbed. You're like a frog trying to teach a robin to fly. You're simply to much.

The only victims are the people you constantly try to put down. You're not to be taken seriously. Get out of your globe and enter the real world.

Why can't you ever say, "You're right. greed has a role in it." Instead, the put-down negativity spews from your brain like water from a hydrant. You're a sad joke, programmed to run negativity.


The loss of a single life is a tragedy to the family members. You want to talk about tragedies and mentally ill, while just look at the Middle East. Hundreds of thousands of tragedies and millions displaced and fools like you saying everything is rosy.

Charlie Manson did not become a murderer because of drugs. Read his new biography by Jeff Guinn. He was a sociopathic con-man. Drugs were used to control people he wanted to control, but they didn't make him what he was.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:21 PM
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Pretty much common knowledge regardless.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
Pretty much common knowledge regardless.

Yes, yes, but I'm trying to get an animal analogy, so I can join the party. Don't ruin it for me with your 'logic.'😄😄😄
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:30 AM
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Manson was so filled with hate that the hatred made him evil. Probably the boy who did the shooting was the same way. Manson's stooges committed the murders under the influence of drugs.

Drugs and alcohol break down mental health, causing mental illness. A friend abused drugs and alcohol until he eventually lost it. He spent his last days roaming the streets talking to himself before he was found dead on a rooftop. He was in good health before his deterioration. His decline in mental health gradually happened.

Some people in institutions with symptoms of mental illness are actually possessed by demonic spirits.
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Drugs and alcohol break down mental health, causing mental illness. A friend abused drugs and alcohol until he eventually lost it. He spent his last days roaming the streets talking to himself before he was found dead on a rooftop. He was in good health before his deterioration. His decline in mental health gradually happened.
You didn't finish. Before he died he went out and shot 9 people -- right?
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:11 AM
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Joe could you put a finer point on what you are trying to say- not trying to be obtuse - I'm just not following.
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:31 AM
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Max, we're talking about the causes of mass shootings. It has something to do with causation vs. correlation. Millions of people die or are profoundly affected by drug and alcohol abuse, but is it anything more than something that SOME mass murderers have in common? I don't think so. It's just like people blaming video games -- what young man who fits the top level profile of so many of these killers doesn't play video games? See what I'm saying?

Last edited by JoeMatt; 06-20-2015 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:56 AM
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not really, it seems like circular logic to me,

the guy is a mass murder and now we are talking about the why,

given what I've read about the shooting; the drugs the guy was possibility taking wouldn't have caused him go on a shooting spree, they are 'put you out' drugs.

so in this case I don't think the drugs had any effect on the shooting.

I don't see where he was a solider so no PTSD in that sense. (killing a way of life)

I don't really believe he wanted to kill black people, he just wanted to kill and the blacks made a target that would get him some press.

so I guess in this case, the drugs had nothing to do with the whole deal.

how far off base do you think I am. and how pertinent is this to the conversation.

max
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
so in this case I don't think the drugs had any effect on the shooting.
Right. That's the point. What's circular about that?
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Old 06-20-2015, 09:29 AM
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no, I don't think you're going circular, it's the ones who can't get out of the rut that drug use equals mass murder.
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Old 06-20-2015, 09:59 AM
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Got it. And it's not alcohol or pornography or demons -- and it doesn't have anything to do with violence in the Middle East or that the white man stole land from Native Americans or any of the other hobby horses that Shelly/CityBoy trots out when he can't come up with anything relevant.

So is greed a problem? On some level. Like I said, follow the money when it comes to most social ills. The bigger problem is ignorance, because greedy people with power rely on it to dupe and distract people who don't know any better. People who are willing to attach whatever causes suit them or what they are spoon fed (Shelly) are part of the problem -- not the solution.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 06-20-2015 at 10:22 AM..
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