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  #31  
Old 11-20-2016, 04:14 PM
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http://www.stratcomcoe.org/next-phas...are-keir-giles

@brian that's a whole other can of worms that needs its own thread. But in the interests of seeing how that might overlap with the conversation I would point you to the Nuremberg Trials wherein it was decided that a soldier was just following orders is an unacceptable defense.

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  #32  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
http://www.stratcomcoe.org/next-phas...are-keir-giles

@brian that's a whole other can of worms that needs its own thread. But in the interests of seeing how that might overlap with the conversation I would point you to the Nuremberg Trials wherein it was decided that a soldier was just following orders is an unacceptable defense.


Yes, but a soldier is following orders from another soldier of higher rank. The warriors I'm talking about are taking orders from the creator of the universe😳
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2016, 05:47 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2016, 06:42 PM
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Well, not the same dilemma, but I know why you're dodging the question😀

Maybe I'll open another thread so we can get to the bottom of my question😆😆😆
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
No, it either makes you sympathetic to a thugs way of handling their business by creating or joining a narrative which allows violence to control the undesirable actions of people who don't agree with your point of view, or it makes you a patsy for said cause and allowance. Admiring Putin is like seeing the genius in Stalin or Hitler or Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud.

Is there electronic smug or electronic self righteousness and mindless pretentiousness the way there is electronic sarcasm? Of course there is.

The meter didn't even need to be turned on to be pegged.

And of course I don't approve of all Putin's actions. I would never ride a bear shirtless while spearing fish for a photo op. Sometimes showing less is more.
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
What if your God has assured you that righteous violence against his enemies, the true evil ones, is not only acceptable but justified, and will still allow you into union with he and the light of heaven(or whatever your term for the eternal afterlife)?
Then your a faithful student of the Koran.
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post

So take a look at putin. He desires power. He has power. He desires wealth. He has wealth. All he can do is seek more of the same. Its unbridled consumption at the expense of people. This is actually very simplistic he has real geopolitical goals mostly the restoration of the soviet union which in my opinion is a monster that never died.
You make his sound like Abe Lincoln or FDR.

Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
He takes his anger out on a people who have nothing to do with his fight. He destroys them knowing full well they're innocent and that it will accomplish nothing. Well the moment he starts acting in such a way that has no outcome well then all his reasons become him as Iago as Coleridge described him: The motive hunting of a motiveless malignity.
Now you make him sound like William Tecumseh Sherman.....

Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
And so we come to the traits, the admirable traits.
1. He believes that the Russian Orthodox Faith is good for Russians and has rebuilt churches that were destroyed or let run down in the communist era.

2. He believes that the orthodox interpretation of the Koran is not a good thing and does not welcome it in Russia, and makes no bones about it.

3. He thinks the Russians should shake off quite a few things from the Communist era, he thinks Russians should lighten up on the Vodka, not succumb to drug addictions, and start procreating at/above replacement rate again.

Whether you agree with him or not, he sees good things in Russia and is a proponent of Russian culture.
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:08 AM
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But given all his nefarious doings, the ones that make him a pretty bad guy, it seems a little to odd to cherry pick a few "good things" as evidence that he should be admired for any reason. At what cost?

Last edited by Myers; 11-21-2016 at 09:27 AM..
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  #39  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:28 AM
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Well, whether you like him or not you have to admire his work ethic. I mean it takes a special kind of person to bludgeon infants with tyre irons, go to the toilet on people down 20 foot holes, pour boiling oil into vaginas, sodomise grandparents, force feeding infants to their mothers AND find the time to run a major country.

AND he always looks so smartly turned out in a nice clean suit.
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  #40  
Old 11-21-2016, 06:03 PM
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@Mohican well for your points. If you didn't like me before you're really gonna hate me now. Nevertheless this is a teachable moment and we can talk about the patriarchate's relation to Putin. First things first these are not independent entities. The church is subservient to the state as it has been well documented and serves as a means of self-legitimization as well as a source of disinformation. As always I'm going to qualify this. I swear to god I'd love someone to really try and counter my claims but alas we already went over that

Here is a brief overlook of the articles concerning the patriarchate and even one from Breitbart XD

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/20/put...ox_church.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ation-theology

http://www.eastwestreport.org/articles/ew05108.htm

http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...thodox-church/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...tins-patriarch

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...ted-orthodoxy/

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ssy-riot-putin


As for your second statement here is Putin's man in Chechnya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

I'll get more links concerning him just gotta give me some time. I also have a book or two that I think might be germane to him. Angel From Grozny I think but don't quote me on that one I have to go back and do some rereading.

I'd like to find some articles in the original russian on him but I'm not a fluent speaker and so its always something of a hassle but I'll do what I can.
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  #41  
Old 11-21-2016, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Then your a faithful student of the Koran.


And the Bible apparently. They loves them some sinner killin'
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
But given all his nefarious doings, the ones that make him a pretty bad guy, it seems a little to odd to cherry pick a few "good things" as evidence that he should be admired for any reason. At what cost?
I think that one should admire the admirable traits in someone - if they have admirable traits.
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  #43  
Old 11-23-2016, 03:25 PM
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Blue:

Wow - such as list of articles.

I'm seeing a bunch of web articles which always have a bit of subjectivity. I'm not seeing anything that is some irrefutable proof of whatever point it is that your making.

I can say that Putin has had churches re-opened. You're saying that he is the defacto leader of Russian Orthodoxy doesn't change the fact that he has re opened churches.

Another Article asserts that the KGB created liberation theory theology in the 60s or 70s proves what in the 2010s? So the ''godless commies" led to something preached in inner city churches? That is typically know standard Rush Limbaugh/Mark Levin/Yawn Vanity talk show fodder since 2008.

Personally, If we are wanting to search for bogeymen I'd keep an eye on the Chinese and their increasing aggression in the China Sea......

Personally, I'm more in favor of things things that keep the US out of extraneous foreign adventures. I see no reason to think the US has to meddle in Syria, or the Ukraine and have a porous southern border at the same time.


I also think we are not in the financial condition to keep up the Cold War pretensions and keep, what, about 700 some foreign bases and installations open forever?
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  #44  
Old 11-23-2016, 05:08 PM
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Default Information/Cyber/russia

So... basically you like him because he re-opened churches? Seriously?

Did you think about the reason a brutal dictator and atheist might want to re-open churches?

Really, sometimes you amaze me.

Last edited by brianpatrick; 11-23-2016 at 06:03 PM..
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  #45  
Old 11-23-2016, 08:53 PM
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@Mohican I'm gonna think about how to respond to this. I have a few ideas but I want to formulate my thoughts correctly. And I'm also leaning much towards brian's thought, the idea that a man wouldn't expand an institution that props him up is rather incredulous.

But there are two things which I can address rather quickly now. You say this:

Personally, If we are wanting to search for bogeymen I'd keep an eye on the Chinese and their increasing aggression in the China Sea......

To this I say I believe that also to be a serious concern of national security however my specialty is russia and so I let the people who are knowledgeable about China do their thing. Its not my area of expertise so I'm not going to throw out an amateur opinion on it. This thread is about information and cyber warfare and russia. I leave it at that.

Personally, I'm more in favor of things things that keep the US out of extraneous foreign adventures. I see no reason to think the US has to meddle in Syria, or the Ukraine and have a porous southern border at the same time

Now this. The US has a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of the world. Let's take Syria for example and the refugee crisis that has arisen because of it. Now according to the Red Cross 4.5 million have left the country (https://www.icrc.org/en/where-we-work/middle-east/syria).

This has strained other countries' infrastructure and patience and the refugee crisis has been picked up by about every single political party in the US and Europe. That in turn has caused divides between populations which has in turn undermined NATO in the form of trump's ambiguity towards Article 5. This is all very linear and its not complicated in any sense of the word. Now I could go on for volumes as this is only one example out of thousands in our contemporary time but others have written volumes and you should read their work.

As for the rest I have tomorrow off. I'll spend some time responding to your retort.
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  #46  
Old 11-23-2016, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Blue:

Wow - such as list of articles.

I'm seeing a bunch of web articles which always have a bit of subjectivity. I'm not seeing anything that is some irrefutable proof of whatever point it is that your making.

I can say that Putin has had churches re-opened. You're saying that he is the defacto leader of Russian Orthodoxy doesn't change the fact that he has re opened churches.

Another Article asserts that the KGB created liberation theory theology in the 60s or 70s proves what in the 2010s? So the ''godless commies" led to something preached in inner city churches? That is typically know standard Rush Limbaugh/Mark Levin/Yawn Vanity talk show fodder since 2008.

Personally, If we are wanting to search for bogeymen I'd keep an eye on the Chinese and their increasing aggression in the China Sea......

Personally, I'm more in favor of things things that keep the US out of extraneous foreign adventures. I see no reason to think the US has to meddle in Syria, or the Ukraine and have a porous southern border at the same time.


I also think we are not in the financial condition to keep up the Cold War pretensions and keep, what, about 700 some foreign bases and installations open forever?
A valiant attempt at reasoning with unreasonableness, Mo.
But I fear this thread proves the power of the media Russaphobia I mentioned upstream. For those incapable of filtering the information critically it becomes a dogma and beyond question. Hence, when challenged, the OP has to run off and find more articles.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2016, 12:46 AM
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So here we see another instantiation of propaganda tactics. Two in fact. I swear tart is the gift that keeps on giving.

The two tactics are this: Projection and propping.

First off I'd like to point out that tart makes no claims but pronouncements. In fact its important he make no claims about the state which he defends because as we noted earlier any invitation to investigation will quickly lead to catastrophe.

Now there's something interesting about that that's only really applicable to sites with large traffic. And that's anonymity. On large sites with hundreds of thousands of visitors per day it is impossible to keep track of every person however on a site as small as this that anonymity is reduced and thus the potential for inundation is reduced. The point being is that on a larger site an individual will be able to post and then withdraw into that sea of persons and reappear again at will whereas here one must make a stand. But again it is imperative that a stand is not taken only the illusion of one.

Now bearing in mind that our specimen has provided nothing in the way of evidence and only the most vaguest of claims he lauds those whom support his position and denigrates his opposition in bombastic terminology. Contrast valiant and frothy mouthed loons

Even his talk is an attempt to discredit evidence

'The Op has to run off and find more articles'

as if evidence is somehow contemptible. Pray you never have a judge like this.

Now the projection aspect comes in his statement about reasonableness. I have provided evidence for my reasoning and proceeded to the best of my ability in a logical fashion but him who has provided nothing at all save a single link to a blogger with known ties to russian state media makes either mocks or makes unsubstantiated declarations about his opponent in this case western civilization.

In all of his responses he ignores any evidence presented that contradicts his position. But of course as said before this is vital. What cannot be refuted has to be ignored and buried. I'll put this in bold: You will never see him directly acknowledge any piece of evidence that contradicts his position.
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2016, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I think that one should admire the admirable traits in someone - if they have admirable traits.
OK. And as far as you're concerned reopening what are amounts to state sponsored churches is one of those "admirable traits."

But what if he's effectively shutting down other churches that aren't aligned with the government and making it illegal for other Christians to preach or proselytize?

And why would he do that unless he's using the approved brand of Orthodox church for his own political purposes?

Still admirable?

Last edited by Myers; 11-24-2016 at 07:45 AM..
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2016, 05:06 PM
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So I was thinking about the way to answer you Mohican and I think the better way to do this is to ask what is it you feel is the flaw in my logic or in the process of my argumentation. Edit: Do you think its simple bias that influences my opinions?

Id have come up with something better but today was a good day and I might have overdone it a bit

Last edited by bluewpc; 11-24-2016 at 06:02 PM.. Reason: Edit #1 Added another question
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2016, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
So I was thinking about the way to answer you Mohican and I think the better way to do this is to ask what is it you feel is the flaw in my logic or in the process of my argumentation. Edit: Do you think its simple bias that influences my opinions?

Id have come up with something better but today was a good day and I might have overdone it a bit


You're wasting your time trying to crack the diamond that is Mo through the front door. Go 'round back where the help comes in.
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  #51  
Old 11-30-2016, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
OK. And as far as you're concerned reopening what are amounts to state sponsored churches is one of those "admirable traits."

But what if he's effectively shutting down other churches that aren't aligned with the government and making it illegal for other Christians to preach or proselytize?

And why would he do that unless he's using the approved brand of Orthodox church for his own political purposes?

Still admirable?
Are these ifs? Or beyond supposition?
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:53 PM
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All of that was in the news last summer — part of a crackdown on "terrorism."
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Old 12-03-2016, 07:21 AM
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http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/doc...%20article.pdf
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Old 12-03-2016, 06:29 PM
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Parnell came down the road, he said to a cheering man: 'Ireland shall get her freedom and you still break stone.'

Yeates 1938
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:52 AM
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https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...P=share_btn_tw
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:36 AM
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http://warontherocks.com/2016/12/rus...-hybrid-state/
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:36 PM
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Vladimir PUtin in a Chilean ceremony with one of his most
trusted cabinet members


Vladimir and his advisor attend a Vietnamese Wedding
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Old 12-08-2016, 11:15 PM
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Why are they wearing upholstery? Is it significant?
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:20 AM
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https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...ry_-_final.pdf
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  #60  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:25 AM
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- if you want to post links, have a few lines on your thoughts on what you are posting.

RE: Russia being accused of interfering with POTUS 2016

The Washington Post jumps on the bandwagon, alleging that it was Russians who provided Wikileaks with info on Hillary, thus shading the election....

If they did, would it be just deserts? Didn't various US people (Insane McCain) undermine a Pro Russian president in Uraine who was ELECTED?

And this article is loose with any "proof". One of the sources seems to be Lipstick Lyndsey Graham.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...06c_story.html

US intelligence finds that the Rooskies are attempting a takedown of Hitler in High Heels (or as FlyingTart says Hitler in Lipstick) aka Merkel

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...s-official-cia

She's not good for the German people themselves, I feel she needs to go so if they did, good riddance to bad trash. Of course with the warning of Unintended Consequences.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I am not seeing is charges of Vote Rigging. But there is a danger in this reporting - are they trying to cast doubt before state electors and then The US House Of Representatives confirm the election?


Could this be an attempt by the administration and some in Congress to change the results of the election?

And wouldn't that be playing with fire?
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