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  #91  
Old 01-07-2017, 06:14 PM
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The map has the value of creating a set (or multiple sets) of rules to live by, therefore ensuring the continuation of the species. Before the age of instant connectivity and globalism religion and tradition provided a pretty good model for this. But as you said, systems which aren't continually updating and revising become corrupt and create more problems than they do good. And if you say: God is all powerful and in charge of everything then it's pretty hard to top that with an update.

We have this onion. As we peel more and more layers, we find more and more onion. We are still in the midst of finding mathematics to describe quantum ideas and as we do, suddenly the onion is not an onion after all. It's a mango. Later when we get to the center of the mango it will become something else.

So science is good at describing systems; culture is good at designing and implementing them (but not really good&#128512, and consciousness allows us to see we are doing this stuff, be aware.

I don't think much of any of it has value beyond, as I said, entertainment. We have to do something; the brain never stops thinking.


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  #92  
Old 01-08-2017, 07:39 AM
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"We" kill people? Why must you include the vast majority of innocent, peaceful, and decent citizens into the hostile group? Why can't you just say some in all governments are intent in eliminating the competition. Then, you will have probably gotten it right.
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  #93  
Old 01-08-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
"We" kill people? Why must you include the vast majority of innocent, peaceful, and decent citizens into the hostile group? Why can't you just say some in all governments are intent in eliminating the competition. Then, you will have probably gotten it right.


We are a representative democracy. We elect people who make decisions in our name.




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  #94  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quick responses today cause its busy.

@cityboy Brian's framing of the question is essentially correct but I would abstract it a little deeper. When I say 'we kill people' I mean we as a species are susceptible to the same psychological phenomena.

@brian Well like I said before you're asking the suicide question. Thing about that question is that another one underlies it and that's does finitude equate to meaninglessness.
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  #95  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:56 AM
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@Mohican

http://www.christianpost.com/news/ru...EqAbTU.twitter
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  #96  
Old 01-08-2017, 05:00 PM
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Essentially correct? I like "specifics." As a species (or more preferably as a member of the human race) I nor ninety-nine percent of the people I have known never killed anybody. Please don't lump everyone together. It is unfair to the many who sweat their asses off to remain decent and positive human beings. To further explain (plain and simple): people who kill or commit such other evil acts are morally bankrupt. Fortunately, "we"--or the vast majority of "us" human beings--have nothing in common with heinous people, and "we" shouldn't be linked to them. You needn't be a genius to understand.

Last edited by Cityboy; 01-08-2017 at 05:17 PM..
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  #97  
Old 01-08-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Essentially correct? I like "specifics." As a species (or more preferably as a member of the human race) I nor ninety-nine percent of the people I have known never killed anybody. Please don't lump everyone together. It is unfair to the many who sweat their asses off to remain decent and positive human beings. To further explain (plain and simple): people who kill or commit such other evil acts are morally bankrupt. Fortunately, "we"--or the vast majority of "us" human beings--have nothing in common with heinous people, and "we" shouldn't be linked to them. You needn't be a genius to understand.


Again, you elect, or allow to be elected people who make decisions to kill other people in apparent or perceived opposition to your way of life. This so you can live in relative peace and tranquility here in the US. You may not have designed nor approve of the system, but you are a willing participant by simply enjoying the ease with which you are able to conduct your daily affairs. Detachment from this truth proves ignorance or denial. A person in the tribal areas of Afghanistan has no such options. They wouldn't even understand that there was an argument to have about it.

Face it: you and I and all of us are guilty.

It doesn't take a genius to see it.


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  #98  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:42 AM
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I don't elect anyone; I don't vote (But that's another story). Only an idiot would want to live in peace and tranquility while watching others being slaughtered by assholes (not "we") for no particular reason other than power or greed. Your statement may apply to you, but I don't buy into it. Preferably, I buy into Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death." Billions of ordinary folks worldwide are at the mercy of maniacs. "We" just don't have any say--they control the armies, the money, and the power.

I'm not guilty, dude. I haven't committed one crime against humanity and never will.

Some people won't recognize the truth if it slapped them across the face--twice. I searched your comment for truth but all I uncovered was an ego on a soapbox. First of all, if we lived a life according to universal truth, you 'd have trouble recognizing the place.

______________

Was anybody's grandmother involved in the extermination of innocent Jews at Auschwitz? Should these sweet old ladies share the burden of those who did the merciless killings? We don't really want to do that to them by making they part of the "we," do we?

Last edited by Cityboy; 01-09-2017 at 10:06 AM..
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  #99  
Old 01-09-2017, 01:16 PM
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@cityboy I've got a lot of to say about that but can't really do it right now. The thrust of my argument will be that abnegation is also a choice and by default tends towards authoritarianism and nihilism with the consequent devaluation of human life inherent in both systems.

@cityboy and brian ease up and keep it decent don't insult one another.

Last edited by bluewpc; 01-09-2017 at 01:19 PM..
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  #100  
Old 01-09-2017, 03:15 PM
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[QUOTE=bluewpc

@cityboy and brian ease up and keep it decent don't insult one another.

[/QUOTE]


Or else.
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  #101  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:38 PM
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I wasn't insulting him, just stating facts.


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  #102  
Old 01-09-2017, 08:10 PM
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I'll spank ya.
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  #103  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:21 AM
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Facts or truth, make up mind. Regardless, you missed target completely. The bottom line here is don't include granny with butchers.
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  #104  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:40 AM
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Your "Keep it decent and don't insult one another" is a remarkable display of class, bluewpc. Unlike so many others (including myself) who enter this forum with steak knife in one hand and fork in the other, you enter as a peaceful person--hats off to you. I nominate you as the classiest man (I think you are) on the site. Thank you for displaying such a warm heart.

Words are merely words--a dime a dozen. But, a good heart is priceless. You are the man.
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  #105  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:17 PM
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Well thank you for the kind words. I'm not going to be able to get to your answer this week I doubt. Its just busy. I've gotta line edit my novel since I decided to self-publish and me and bud are developing a game so my time is just waaah.
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  #106  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:23 PM
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Also late as it is I woke up fifteen minutes ago and here is this:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politi...report-russia/

Not surprised in the least but jesus fucking Christ and a llamas gangrenous cum dumpster. And with that I think lost the classiest man on the site

Last edited by bluewpc; 01-10-2017 at 06:31 PM..
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  #107  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Also late as it is I woke up fifteen minutes ago and here is this:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politi...report-russia/

Not surprised in the least but jesus fucking Christ and a llamas gangrenous cum dumpster. And with that I think lost the classiest man on the site


I believe Putin is a bad guy, but all this obvious ramping up of tensions seems contrived. Much like the ramp up to the last Iraq war.

I'm waiting for the Russians to commit an 'act of war' in the near future.


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  #108  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:39 AM
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Dark side of the moon, everybody has one.
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  #109  
Old 01-11-2017, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Dark side of the moon, everybody has one.


I have an original vinyl LP in excellent condition, but I no longer have a record player to play it on.


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  #110  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I have an original vinyl LP in excellent condition, but I no longer have a record player to play it on.


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I have a turntable with USB connectivity.....

take that....

(I'd have to get my vinyl out our storage building..
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  #111  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:59 PM
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First off I'd like to apologize to cityboy and brian I've not yet had time to respond to your question and I'll be not responding to it here but I will try and get to it next week.

What I will be doing is drawing a parallel between Trump's recent interview with the WSJ that he is willing to work with Russia and Richard Weisberg's essay Antonio's Legalistic Cruelty: Interdisciplinarity and "The Merchant of Venice to be found here

http://www.jstor.org/stable/42975483...n_tab_contents

You can sign up for free on Jstor following the instructions on the site.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38621025

The original article is to the WSJ and I do not have a subscription to it. The parallels I would like to draw are between Antonio's ostensible act of mercy towards Shylock and Trump's ostensible act of toughness upon Russia. To this end here is the pertinent scene from The Merchant of Venice:

PORTIA
What mercy can you render him, Antonio?

GRATIANO
A halter gratis, nothing else, for God’s sake.

ANTONIO
So please my lord the duke and all the court,
To quit the fine for one half of his goods
I am content, so he will let me have
The other half in use to render it
Upon his death unto the gentleman
That lately stole his daughter.
Two things provided more: that for this favor
He presently become a Christian;
The other, that he do record a gift
Here in the court, of all he dies possessed,
Unto his son Lorenzo and his daughter.

I will assume here that you have read the essay that I can now draw the parallels between Antonio and Trump.

As it says Antonio's act of mercy costs him nothing and causes grievous harm to Shylock. Trump's talk on lifting sanctions does the same. The BBC reports these two important lines:

"Mr. Trump told the Wall Street Journal that newly-imposed sanctions on Russia would remain "at least for a period of time" but could then be lifted."

and

"In his interview, Mr. Trump said sanctions on Russia could be lifted if Moscow helped Washington in the war against Islamic extremism and in other matters."

The 2014 sanctions on Russia were not imposed due to the Syrian conflict or the intervention in the US election. They were imposed because of the annexation of Crimea and the invasion and de facto annexation of the Donbass region. In tying the lifting of sanctions to cooperation against ISIS Trump undermines their intended purpose, draws attention from them, and leads the public to believe falsely that the sanctions are linked to the fight against ISIS.

We are already ostensibly cooperating against ISIS, though Moscow has used operations against the Islamic state as a pretense to bomb civilians in Aleppo, and so Russia is required to do nothing to secure the alleviation of sanctions while at the same time gaining free reign to conduct operations in Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltics, and quite frankly every former satellite of the Soviet Union.

Last edited by bluewpc; 01-13-2017 at 09:19 PM..
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  #112  
Old 01-14-2017, 06:49 AM
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Cruel. "Don't Be Cruel" put a lot of dough in Elvis' savings account.
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  #113  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Cruel. "Don't Be Cruel" put a lot of dough in Elvis' savings account.


And a lot of donuts and pills in his belly.


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  #114  
Old 01-14-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
First off I'd like to apologize to cityboy and brian I've not yet had time to respond to your question and I'll be not responding to it here but I will try and get to it next week.

What I will be doing is drawing a parallel between Trump's recent interview with the WSJ that he is willing to work with Russia and Richard Weisberg's essay Antonio's Legalistic Cruelty: Interdisciplinarity and "The Merchant of Venice to be found here

http://www.jstor.org/stable/42975483...n_tab_contents

You can sign up for free on Jstor following the instructions on the site.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38621025

The original article is to the WSJ and I do not have a subscription to it. The parallels I would like to draw are between Antonio's ostensible act of mercy towards Shylock and Trump's ostensible act of toughness upon Russia. To this end here is the pertinent scene from The Merchant of Venice:

PORTIA
What mercy can you render him, Antonio?

GRATIANO
A halter gratis, nothing else, for Godís sake.

ANTONIO
So please my lord the duke and all the court,
To quit the fine for one half of his goods
I am content, so he will let me have
The other half in use to render it
Upon his death unto the gentleman
That lately stole his daughter.
Two things provided more: that for this favor
He presently become a Christian;
The other, that he do record a gift
Here in the court, of all he dies possessed,
Unto his son Lorenzo and his daughter.

I will assume here that you have read the essay that I can now draw the parallels between Antonio and Trump.

As it says Antonio's act of mercy costs him nothing and causes grievous harm to Shylock. Trump's talk on lifting sanctions does the same. The BBC reports these two important lines:

"Mr. Trump told the Wall Street Journal that newly-imposed sanctions on Russia would remain "at least for a period of time" but could then be lifted."

and

"In his interview, Mr. Trump said sanctions on Russia could be lifted if Moscow helped Washington in the war against Islamic extremism and in other matters."

The 2014 sanctions on Russia were not imposed due to the Syrian conflict or the intervention in the US election. They were imposed because of the annexation of Crimea and the invasion and de facto annexation of the Donbass region. In tying the lifting of sanctions to cooperation against ISIS Trump undermines their intended purpose, draws attention from them, and leads the public to believe falsely that the sanctions are linked to the fight against ISIS.

We are already ostensibly cooperating against ISIS, though Moscow has used operations against the Islamic state as a pretense to bomb civilians in Aleppo, and so Russia is required to do nothing to secure the alleviation of sanctions while at the same time gaining free reign to conduct operations in Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltics, and quite frankly every former satellite of the Soviet Union.

I've watched RT for a while now (not exclusively), and most of the programming is what I would call 'very liberal.' Hosts like Thom Hartmann, Ed Shultz, and Larry King (others as well) seem to be pushing a genuinely left wing agenda in line with the progressive values held in many of the European countries. And since many of these views are in line with my beliefs and ideas about where our country should eventually go, I'm not sure I see a huge problem or threat. National healthcare. Pensions. Trade unions. Anti-imperialism. Quality public education. Fairness in the tax system. On and on.

This kind of liberal, as opposed the the Obama-Clinton kind of liberal, which is nothing more than corporatist/Republican in lefty clothes, and business as usual bullshit, seems like a better idea to me.

Yes, the bias towards Russia is mostly obvious, but I find it hard to believe we will eventually set up a gulag system here in the US. Bernie Sanders a Gulag master? Naw.




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  #115  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:24 PM
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@brian The point of RT (Russia Today) is to tell you what you want to hear. Its packaging. So RT pushes liberal agenda but is an attachment of a nationalistic kleptocracy. What does that tell you?

Trump told people he was going to drain the swamp, said it loud and proud over and over but now that he has power where are those promises? Most of his cabinet appointments have gone to loyalists including advisory positions.

This is my same argument with Mohican. You can't base your opinions or shade your world simply because they say what you want to hear. There has to be congruity between speech and action.

So RT is neither left nor right but ideologically flexible. They are whatever the kremlin wants them to be. Watch their coverage of Russia's militaristic actions. Everyone is concerned about China militarizing islands in the China Sea. Well guess what Russia is doing the same thing on the Kuril Islands and back in September they held joint exercises with China in mock island invasions.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...outh-china-sea

https://www.rt.com/politics/367773-r...est-anti-ship/

https://www.rt.com/news/357970-putin...erg-interview/

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/333746-am...uth-china-sea/
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  #116  
Old 01-14-2017, 08:02 PM
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So are you saying DT is complicit or a patsy? Being used.
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  #117  
Old 01-14-2017, 08:54 PM
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I would argue yes to both and more complicit than patsy. I fully understand that I'm breaking one of the sacrosanct pillars of our country, that you're innocent until proven guilty, however the circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly points to that conclusion, his willingness to recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea, his denial that Russian troops are in the Donbass, his undermining of NATO specifically Article 5, his constant praise of Putin, his refusal for months to admit that Russia was the perpetrator of the hacks and then his immediate downplaying of it, his unreleased tax returns which would clear up his statement that he has "...Nothing to with Russia. I have nothing to do with Russia —*for anything" directly contradicted by his son's statement "Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets.” Donald Trump Jr. added, “we see a lot of money pouring in from Russia", and in light of the accusations made by Mr. Steele whose reputation has come out to be credible who has gone into hiding, and in light of the FBI investigation ongoing since October into Trump's ties, and his expressed willingness to lift sanctions on Russia, that the DNC hacks benefited his campaign, and his personal call for the Russian's to further hack the DNC and to release damaging information and his ability demonstrated time and time again to blatantly lie even in the face of overwhelming facts and lastly in consideration that this man is to take the most powerful position in the world means that I am willing to forgo that presumption of innocence in the insistence that he be held to the highest standard and that his inauguration should be delayed until the public can be reasonably, and I strongly emphasize reasonably, be satisfied that he is not compromised or colluding.
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  #118  
Old 01-14-2017, 09:52 PM
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After watching the movie Snowden for the first time tonight, all I have to say to you is: 😂you're crazy😂, and our new president is going to make America great again!

You're probably just jealous of his good hair😂
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  #119  
Old 01-14-2017, 10:30 PM
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haha well here you go :

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...ry_-_final.pdf
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  #120  
Old 01-14-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post

https://youtu.be/GN-vMMpja30
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