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Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind

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Old 11-20-2016, 12:48 PM
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Default Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind


No Mention of fairies in article, but many did say he was losing his mind (surprising?)



How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind





by Dr. Benjamin Wiker
Filed under Conversion

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EDITOR'S NOTE: For the last half of the twentieth century, Antony Flew (1923-2010) was the world's most famous atheist. Long before Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris began taking swipes at religion, Flew was the preeminent spokesman for unbelief.
However in 2004, he shocked the world by announcing he had come to believe in God. While never embracing Christianity—Flew only believed in the deistic, Aristotelian conception of God—he became one of the most high-profile and surprising atheist converts. In 2007, he recounted his conversion in a book titled There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. Some critics suggested Flew's mental capacity had declined and therefore we should question the credibility of his conversion. Others hailed Flew's book as a legitimate and landmark publication.
A couple months before the book's release, Flew sat down with Strange Notions contributor Dr. Benjamin Wiker for an interview about his book, his conversion, and the reasons that led him to God. Read below and enjoy!


Dr. Benjamin Wiker: You say in There is a God, that "it may well be that no one is as surprised as I am that my exploration of the Divine has after all these years turned from denial...to discovery." Everyone else was certainly very surprised as well, perhaps all the more so since on our end, it seemed so sudden. But in There is a God, we find that it was actually a very gradual process—a "two decade migration," as you call it. God was the conclusion of a rather long argument, then. But wasn't there a point in the "argument" where you found yourself suddenly surprised by the realization that "There is a God" after all? So that, in some sense, you really did "hear a Voice that says" in the evidence itself "'Can you hear me now?'"


Antony Flew: There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself—which is far more complex than the physical Universe—can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.


Entire Interview: http://www.strangenotions.com/flew/


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Old 11-20-2016, 01:02 PM
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Default Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind

He became afraid as he approached late life. A pussy, really. It happens to lots of people. Some get a gun or two (for self protection of course), and others turn to religion as they realize that they are standing on a cliff overlooking... nothing.

Nothing.

Nada.

Zip.

The end.

...pussy
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:16 PM
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I thought the same thing as Brian. He didn't have any evidence, so he formed a new opinion.

And dismissing Dawkins' ideas with a glib and dismissive one-liner, indicates he didn't read or didn't understand The God Delusion.

I'm not sure what your point is, Cityboy, because people change their minds and form new opinions about all sorts of things all the time.

Here area few more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_to_nontheism
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
For the last half of the twentieth century, Antony Flew (1923-2010) was the world's most famous atheist
No he wasn't. He was never even close to being the world's most famous atheist.

Such a blatant lie in the first sentence is a red flag, of course. It means we're not dealing with a proper news source but with a liar with a blog -- a bliar, if you will. This particular bliar is Dr Benjamin Wiker, whose doctorate is in a discipline called "Theological ethics" (i.e. Bible Studies).

Later on, he misleadingly gives you the impression that Einstein was a theist, which he most certainly was not. Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, not a personal deity. I've never understood this urge theists have to claim Einstein for their own. There are so many first rate scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton the father of the sciences himself, who really were passionate and dedicated theists, that it's quite unnecessary to pretend that Einstein had any such belief.
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English is a strange language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
No he wasn't. He was never even close to being the world's most famous atheist.

Such a blatant lie in the first sentence is a red flag, of course. It means we're not dealing with a proper news source but with a liar with a blog -- a bliar, if you will. This particular bliar is Dr Benjamin Wiker, whose doctorate is in a discipline called "Theological ethics" (i.e. Bible Studies).

Later on, he misleadingly gives you the impression that Einstein was a theist, which he most certainly was not. Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, not a personal deity. I've never understood this urge theists have to claim Einstein for their own. There are so many first rate scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton the father of the sciences himself, who really were passionate and dedicated theists, that it's quite unnecessary to pretend that Einstein had any such belief.


Thanks for 'bliar'—that's a fun one!
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:39 PM
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Not to be confused with Tony Bliar.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Not to be confused with Tony Bliar.


From a yankee perspective he was a sexy bitch who bent over for our George W. Bush.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
No he wasn't. He was never even close to being the world's most famous atheist.

Such a blatant lie in the first sentence is a red flag, of course. It means we're not dealing with a proper news source but with a liar with a blog -- a bliar, if you will. This particular bliar is Dr Benjamin Wiker, whose doctorate is in a discipline called "Theological ethics" (i.e. Bible Studies).

Later on, he misleadingly gives you the impression that Einstein was a theist, which he most certainly was not. Einstein believed in Spinoza's God, not a personal deity. I've never understood this urge theists have to claim Einstein for their own. There are so many first rate scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton the father of the sciences himself, who really were passionate and dedicated theists, that it's quite unnecessary to pretend that Einstein had any such belief.
What does Einstein have to do with anything? He was hard at work trying to figure out things about creation; he wasn't the Creator though.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
What does Einstein have to do with anything? He was hard at work trying to figure out things about creation; he wasn't the Creator though.


Careful now chappy... Einstein was hard at work trying to figure out things about creation? I think you've misused your words.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:54 PM
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Suppose--now this is a serious suppose--one of you would change their beliefs, would he become "half-baked" to the others? Would he then become victim of a mental disorder? Do you tar and feather him too for a discovery he has made? Every time evidence about God or the afterlife is produced, it seems as though most of you go into defensive mode, as if it is not improbable to you but impossible.

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Old 11-20-2016, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Careful now chappy... Einstein was hard at work trying to figure out things about creation? I think you've misused your words.
One might say that. He was a human being; that's the point.

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Old 11-20-2016, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Suppose--now this is a serious suppose--one of you would change their beliefs, would he become "half-baked" to the others? Would he then become victim of a mental disorder? Do you tar and feather him too for a discovery he has made? Every time evidence about God or the afterlife is produced, it seems as though most of you go into defensive mode, as if it is not improbable but impossible.


If another human were to express a heartfelt change in belief about all that stuff I would honor it. I have many Christian friends whom I have deep respect and love for. It doesn't matter what one believes, but who one is that counts.

Third party apologists need not apply.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
If another human were to express a heartfelt change in belief about all that stuff I would honor it. I have many Christian friends whom I have deep respect and love for. It doesn't matter what one believes, but who one is that counts.

Third party apologists need not apply.
How can you honor it when you claim someone who sees or hears spirits has a mental disorder?


It is a two-way street though. The atheists who find God and the religious who abandon God. But, this is an interesting quote I found. It might have some truth in it:

Francis Thompson wrote: "Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

General statement: It doesn't matter what one believes, but who one is that counts. It's vague though. When one becomes a criminal, what does that count for?

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Old 11-20-2016, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
How can you honor it when you claim someone who sees or hears spirits has a mental disorder?


It is a two-way street though. The atheists who find God and the religious who abandon God. But, this is an interesting quote I found. It might have some truth in it:

Francis Thompson wrote: "Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

General statement: It doesn't matter what one believes, but who one is that counts. It's vague though. When one becomes a criminal, what does that count for?


You are yet to express a heartfelt and humble belief. If you showed love and not hostility, it would be different. But you don't... which leads me to believe you don't understand what you say.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:32 PM
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Again, you just go off the rails when confronted with possible evidence. Defensive mechanics are not always the best option. All those tactics do is stymie your knowledge of what lies around the corner.


You're the one who brands people with disorders. New kind of love, handing out labels?

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Old 11-20-2016, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Suppose--now this is a serious suppose--one of you would change their beliefs, would he become "half-baked" to the others? Would he then become victim of a mental disorder? Do you tar and feather him too for a discovery he has made? Every time evidence about God or the afterlife is produced, it seems as though most of you go into defensive mode, as if it is not improbable to you but impossible.
I believe in God, but I still claim you are expressing falsehoods as truths. You don't seem to be fooling anyone though - isn't that the point?
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:38 PM
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Falsehoods? What do you mean, please express further. In other words, you disbelieve what I have stated?


If an elderly person, a former atheist, turns to God, is that person a pussy? Is that what you believe?

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Old 11-20-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
How can you honor it when you claim someone who sees or hears spirits has a mental disorder?


It is a two-way street though. The atheists who find God and the religious who abandon God. But, this is an interesting quote I found. It might have some truth in it:

Francis Thompson wrote: "Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

General statement: It doesn't matter what one believes, but who one is that counts. It's vague though. When one becomes a criminal, what does that count for?


Criminals can count for a lot. Just because a person breaks the law of the land doesn't mean they are not good humans.

If it's vague to you, think harder about it. Take some time, figure it out.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:46 PM
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To be honest, I have no idea what the Truth is. I evaluate my life experiences and then hope the most important ones draw me closer to the Truth. Other than that, I know as much about the truth as anyone else does.
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Criminals can count for a lot. Just because a person breaks the law of the land doesn't mean they are not good humans.

If it's vague to you, think harder about it. Take some time, figure it out.
I had rapists and murderers in mind. We all start out on equal footing. Though to be a decent citizen requires harder work than to become a criminal. To keep from trouble takes a huge effort. Trouble is the easiest thing to get into.

I know criminals count--how many votes were cast two Tuesdays ago. That's a lot of forgiving. You're not the only one who forgives.

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Old 11-20-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
To be honest, I have no idea what the Truth is. I evaluate my life experiences and then hope the most important ones draw me closer to the Truth. Other than that, I know as much about the truth as anyone else does.


Well, nobody knows all of the truth. It seems the deeper you get into the 'truth' the more there is to learn. It's like layers of an onion.

But, I don't believe you don't know what a good human is. You probably have many friends with all kinds of beliefs (possibly contrary to your own) that are essentially good humans. People who don't care that you are a kook who believes in spirits, etc. okay, I'm just goofing with you, but you see what I mean, right?

When we divide up into teams is where we get into trouble. Couple that with several teams blurring reality for personal gain we get shit soup.

Is there a God? I don't care. Is my Christian friend Tom a good guy who loves his fellow man and would help anyone who was in trouble no matter their beliefs? Yes.

I can't make it more plain.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Falsehoods? What do you mean, please express further. In other words, you disbelieve what I have stated?


If an elderly person, a former atheist, turns to God, is that person a pussy? Is that what you believe?
Why are you presenting this here? What has this individual's choice got to do with an intellectual topic for discussion? cf your own understanding you posted shortly afterwards (see below). When you come to the table with something you want to discuss, honestly, I'm sure we would listen. When you come to the table with third rate propaganda and misdirection, why should we give it any more credit than what it is worth?

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
To be honest, I have no idea what the Truth is. I evaluate my life experiences and then hope the most important ones draw me closer to the Truth. Other than that, I know as much about the truth as anyone else does.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Why are you presenting this here? What has this individual's choice got to do with an intellectual topic for discussion? cf your own understanding you posted shortly afterwards (see below). When you come to the table with something you want to discuss, honestly, I'm sure we would listen. When you come to the table with third rate propaganda and misdirection, why should we give it any more credit than what it is worth?

I applaud you. I will applaud you further when you start singling out not only me but those who refer to Sunday school as the raping of a child's mind (What kind of propaganda is that? And why have you remained silent to it?). I think you like to hear yourself speak and sing only the music a certain audience likes. Is that too a falsehood? Apparently it doesn't seem so.


If you dislike the material, ignore it. But don't barge in and make some hypocrite of yourself.

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Old 11-20-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Well, nobody knows all of the truth. It seems the deeper you get into the 'truth' the more there is to learn. It's like layers of an onion.

But, I don't believe you don't know what a good human is. You probably have many friends with all kinds of beliefs (possibly contrary to your own) that are essentially good humans. People who don't care that you are a kook who believes in spirits, etc. okay, I'm just goofing with you, but you see what I mean, right?

When we divide up into teams is where we get into trouble. Couple that with several teams blurring reality for personal gain we get shit soup.

Is there a God? I don't care. Is my Christian friend Tom a good guy who loves his fellow man and would help anyone who was in trouble no matter their beliefs? Yes.

I can't make it more plain.

I think you're so full of yourself it's pathetic.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
I applaud you. I will applaud you further when you start singling out not only me but those who refer to Sunday school as the raping of a child's mind (What kind of propaganda is that? And why have you remained silent to it?). I think you like to hear yourself speak and sing only the music a certain audience likes. Is that too a falsehood? Apparently it doesn't seem so.


If you dislike the material, ignore it. But don't barge in and make some hypocrite of yourself.
Well you could always check out what I stated in response to that thread, you could quote me in here if you like, you could also check out what I have been stating on New Atheism and quote me on it.

But you did create this thread for a reason, what's wrong with me asking what that reason is? You are free to ask if I have an ulterior motive in calling it a falsehood if you like?
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
I think you're so full of yourself it's pathetic.


Yes in fact I am completely full of myself. 100% me you might say. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Yes in fact I am completely full of myself. 100% me you might say. Thanks for pointing that out.
okay, I'm just goofing with you, but you see what I mean, right?
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Well you could always check out what I stated in response to that thread, you could quote me in here if you like, you could also check out what I have been stating on New Atheism and quote me on it.

But you did create this thread for a reason, what's wrong with me asking what that reason is? You are free to ask if I have an ulterior motive in calling it a falsehood if you like?
You have a right to ask ... askers are the most intelligent people. But, come on, you call my stuff propaganda yet draw blanks on garbage much worse than what I've been posting. Even so, it's none of my business to pry into your behavior. But, I just found it odd why you let that shit pass and come down on my stuff. I would respect you more if you just say--"I don't like you; get lost."

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Old 11-20-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
You have a right to ask ... askers are the most intelligent people. But, come on, you call my stuff propaganda yet draw blanks on garbage much worse than what I've been posting. Even so, it's none of my business to pry into your behavior. But, I just found it odd why you let that shit pass and come down on my stuff. I would respect you more if you just say--"I don't like you; get lost."
Yeah, but actually read the thread, all the people you are paying out in this forum as not loving you why don't you actually read what they stated in response to the Sunday School thread/s.

Anyway here is my defence,

In defence of Ignatius PickleBottom - By Ignatius PickleBottom
Or, CityBoy does not read what poor old PickleBottom takes the time to type showing that CityBoy does not love or care about poor old PickleBottom

Stop the rape. Expand Coverage of the Age of Consent Laws.

"I feel a comment I made may have inadvertently led to this, but the vibe of the preceding posts man! Ergo, why only Sunday School? Why not all other indoctrination where the teaching has no basis in reality?"

"Yes but in a way what is happening is you are curing one of multiple manifestations of a few causes. Similarly, people years from now can ban images and slogans of Trump without ensuring a person like Trump (for example, Clinton) cannot be voted for again. Banning Sunday School is doing something similar, i.e. it will not "cure" irrational belief, greed, group mentality, greed, bullying, greed etc

Similarly cutting out one tumour will not stop a malignant cancer.

But, unlike cancer, the problem is not too difficult to solve..."

"Apparently Richard Dawkins has pondered on the evils of Harry Potter, I hope New Atheists aren't going to start attending AHarry Potter conferences to celebrate their lack of belief in witchcraft.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/3255...d-Dawkins.html"

"Would you agree that where any child is conditioned to;
-respond to a statement as fact that has no basis in reality
-unconditionally hold a statement as true
that the child is being indoctrinated?

If you answer no, I fail to understand how Sunday School is not indoctrination, if you answer yes then you automatically include a lot of what you would state to be education in the same basket.

Secondarily to this I believe you will agree with the statement, "God does not exist" so it is important to realise why religion does exist. And not just religion, the things that most likely piss you off about religion are the same effects that can be found in non-religious institutions - that are also taught to children."

"Atheists aren't necessarily people against religion, but anti-theists and New Atheists on the other hand...

Come on, wrc, be nice.
Now New Atheists, now there is a religi... err a group of people who religiously attend conferences, attend lectures, have group discussions, have forum discussions, attend rallies, create a church, read the same books, watch the same YouTube channels, have a similar ideology, have a symbol, etc all about their lack of belief in a God. Kind of like if their hobby were non-stamp collecting. That's exactly how I would picture non-stamp collectors behaving.

Ah yes, New Atheism, don't get me started on New Atheism, I'll be like a dog without a bone."

"I wouldn't try and get into the head of a New Atheist, maybe they are scared that they might inadvertently state something that is irrational and therefore attend conferences to be taught what they are and are not allowed to believe in?

Personally I wouldn't distinguish Sunday School from any other kind of conditioning to believe in phenomena that has no basis in physical reality, commercials, compound interest, the law, the stock exchange, democracy etc and since we are not allowed agency we are similar to the children in Sunday School, ergo state "Jesus loves you" or be whipped."

"I've never met or know of a New Atheist either, they are an example of supernatural phenomena, if any person wants to give a strong atheist evidence of the supernatural they just need to state "New Atheist". I disagree that there is nothing on the net, there is evidence for the phenomena all over the place, but no perpetrators - ghosts maybe?"

"I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm veering off topic, at least on this occasion, I'm providing a new perspective, why do New Atheists, i.e. the ethereal, go to conferences on their lack of belief? Do non-stamp collectors do the same? This is probably the complete opposite of the spectrum to parents sending their children to Sunday School yet there seems to be the same result?

Probably for a few reasons, 1) so people know who I'm responding to, 2) some people, have edited or deleted the posts I have responded to in the past rendering my responses... err... non-responsive"

"Anywho, speaking of going off topic, consider the following parable (that won't be found in The Bible)

Religion should be like sex; not in public and between consenting adults"

Challenge for the Luddites of the Sunday School thread


"Based on your statement you are giving an example of something I believe you will miss through banning indoctrination - aspects of the current schooling of children"

Sunday School is Mental Rape to Children

"It is wrong to state that you are wrong and therefore you are right"

"I never said it was wrong to do so"
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
okay, I'm just goofing with you, but you see what I mean, right?


See? There now... I knew you had a sense of humor in there somewhere.
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