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Equality For Women

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  #1  
Old 03-12-2016, 04:55 AM
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Default Equality For Women


What does complete equality mean with men and women? I mean, there’s such a thing as net equality now. And I wonder how far people will go….

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Old 03-12-2016, 05:10 AM
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("...there is only equality in one's anonymity..." ventured the goblin happy at chat bot's return, adding "...otherwise one would become known and as such would then have to live by that reality there...", thus reality is ever inequality felt the goblin)

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Old 03-12-2016, 06:16 AM
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Sometimes I think equality for women is a pipe dream. Some men feel inferior to women and then make snide remarks. Do you react or walk away, neither seems to work? Although not all men are like that, but chauvinism can become contagious.

Net anonymity will only exist if the other person does not know your sex.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:11 AM
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There will probably be equality for women when men start having babies.
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by chat bot View Post
What does complete equality mean with men and women? I mean, there’s such a thing as net equality now. And I wonder how far people will go….
There is no such thing as net equality and won't be all the time guys think its ok to threaten rape etc if a woman posts something they disagree with on twitter for example.

Net equality wont exist all the time we suffer anonymous body shaming.(this isn't just a net phenomenon but on the net its nastier and more personal)

Net equality cannot happen all the time people can post anonymously.

In some ways we never had it so good. I worked in the adult publishing industry in the 80s which was as sexist as it gets. Guys literally thought we (women employees, who were few and far between) were there for decoration and to bestow sexual favours. If you wore a skirt you'd have a hand thrust up it 3 or 4 times a day, if you wore jeans you got called a lesbian. We lived with it because its how the world was and we were earning big money. And compared to the models we had it easy.

But we still get discriminated against. We still get paid less for doing the same job as a guy. We still are discriminated against because employers think we're going to run off and get pregnant. We are still sexually harassed at work. We still aren't treated as equal.
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Old 03-15-2016, 06:10 AM
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People will be equal when it no longer occurs to one gender or other to insult another gender to hide their own inadequacies.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:45 AM
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First you have to define what you want you want out of equality between the genders.

Is it a nebulous concept such as average equal pay?

Or Equal pay for equal work?

Or the right of suffrage. Do you want women to keep on suffraging, Chat_Bot?
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Old 03-15-2016, 11:40 AM
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("...hate to admit it but feel most men start out thinking with the dicks where most women end up thinking with their wombs..." sighed the goblin upon the folly of human nature he guessed, adding "...of course there is inequality between the sexes and I don't condone it, yet worse than anything in particular is the general loss of faith in those things the west had held dearly to throughout the years gone by, a job for life example, one's savings meaning something in the bank, being able to retire at retirement age, a time before enslaving student loans and crippling medical bills, a time before the NDAA act took away the last of one's unalienable rights, a time before the words "preemptive" and "winnable first strike" were openly voiced without thought upon the citizen..." the goblin broke off to conclude "...so no then I'm not one to care much about the inequality of the sexes today, much more than that I care about the inequality of this generation in view of the last generation, that of "the american dream" of their golden years that has fallen so far down to be our "the american nightmare" of our today...")

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Old 03-15-2016, 12:05 PM
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Hmmmm. Women get roughly 24% lower lifetime earnings, sexual harassment, and all the delights and joys of feminine biology. They need 30% fewer calories to maintain life and 30% less alcohol to get drunk, and they live seven years longer.

Because of the whole "dead seven years younger" issue, it's not obvious to me that men have it a whole lot better than women do. Perhaps women should work seven years longer than men, so both genders could enjoy an equal length of retirement?
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:27 PM
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Sometimes when "accepted" statistics get dropped into an argument I think of the Teacher in Charlie Brown - she's talking and all the students hear is wah wah wah white noise.

Pursuing equality is a false narrative, and that forcing the sexes to be "equal" leads to misery.

What matters is how men treat women and how women treat men. I look to my grandparents and parents as examples - and excellent examples.

During the Great Depression my grandfather took his only factory job in a lifetime of farm work. (plus he kept working the farm) As was the custom, the women came into town with the men. Out of a hundred men, Grandpa was the only one to bring his wife (my grandma) in with him.

The Supervisor asked him why and he replied that she had a right to see where he was working and what he would be doing, and he was not leaving her out in the car. The Supervisor respected Grandpa, giving him one of the few available jobs.

Grandpa would have snorted at the notion of equality between the sexes. But in the acknowledgement of their respective roles there was love and respect between them. There were men who called themselves liberals and bragged about their women voting but when it came down to it left their wives in their cars in the July heat.....

Dad would readily admit that Mom was smarter than him - she had a masters in physics in the 1940s. Rarified air for everyone. The issue was that outside of going to work for the government, there would be nothing she could do that would pay the same wages as his (very skilled) profession as a pattern-maker for first a pump company and then an auto maker. There was an understanding of man - woman not as equals, but as partners.

Dad/Mom and Grandad/Grandma reminded me of a something that several of Louis L'Amours characters said - " I don't want a woman to walk in front or behind me but beside me".

It is getting late, and anything else I would have on this will have to wait.
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Pursuing equality is a false narrative, and that forcing the sexes to be "equal" leads to misery.
You're a very old fashioned man, Mohican. And your specs sure seem to be tinted a deep shade of rosy. But we been in the 21st century for some time now.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:44 AM
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Yep, its not about forcing equality, its about getting mutual respect for all genders. And to be honest, I don't have much time for people who think others should be treated depending on the standards of socially constructed roles rather than as the individuals they are. I see people first and treat them accordingly.

The sooner we all get past this male/female divide and recognise we're all just people trying to figure out our shit as we go along, the better.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
You're a very old fashioned man, Mohican. And your specs sure seem to be tinted a deep shade of rosy. But we been in the 21st century for some time now.
If you tell me that I'm my Grandpa I take it as a compliment.

you can't reduce some things to a meme, but....

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Old 03-16-2016, 05:08 AM
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Sorry to be pedantic but if someone needs an "ism" to show them that respect of their parents, elders, and other humans in general is a good thing, they might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. Just saying
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CandraH View Post
Sorry to be pedantic but if someone needs an "ism" to show them that respect of their parents, elders, and other humans in general is a good thing, they might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. Just saying

'Bring me a sandwich and a lemonade dear; my back is aching from a hard days work, and all you've done all day is play around with the children.' 😀😜😀😜
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:16 AM
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Sounds like you placed some kind of listening device at my house.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by CandraH View Post
Sorry to be pedantic but if someone needs an "ism" to show them that respect of their parents, elders, and other humans in general is a good thing, they might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. Just saying
It's a good thing that I like you....
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
If you tell me that I'm my Grandpa I take it as a compliment.

you can't reduce some things to a meme, but....
Your grandpa was a product of his time, he has an excuse. You don't.

Tradition... arranged marriages, sanctioned wife beating, no votes for women, the need for 2 world wars for women to get a foothold in the men's workplace (at a fraction of the wage), droit du seigneur, wives being chattels rather than partners, female genital mutilation, forced prostitution, Joy Divisions, the legal right to rape your wife, the culture of sexual harassment, the sometimes unspoken (often not) male suspicion (serving to excuse the rapist and absolve him from guilt) that if a woman is raped it's because she's asking for it, or its because of how she was dressed...

How long have you got? Your grandfather perpetuated a lot of that. That's ok, it was the nature of the times. He didn't know any better. He probably thought I was ok to use grandma as a servant, to beat her when she didn't perform to his requirements and to rape old grandma if she had a headache but he felt horny.

Tradition is the crock of shit that ape men use to cling on to the past because they're afraid of change.

Don't give your seat up to me. Don't open doors for me. Respect me as an equal.
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
'Bring me a sandwich and a lemonade dear; my back is aching from a hard days work, and all you've done all day is play around with the children.' ��������
Haha get one yourself and for me while you're at it. I just spent the day burying the kids ����

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
It's a good thing that I like you....
Hehe ��
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:53 AM
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And on a serious note, nicely put wyf. Its time we put aside ideas of tradition and associated gender roles and move forward into a world where we're all equally respected as the human beings we are.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:43 PM
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It's mostly older white men who long for the good old days. Coincidentally, they're the ones who had all the power. Funny how that works.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Your grandpa was a product of his time, he has an excuse. You don't.

Tradition... arranged marriages, sanctioned wife beating, no votes for women, the need for 2 world wars for women to get a foothold in the men's workplace (at a fraction of the wage), droit du seigneur, wives being chattels rather than partners, female genital mutilation, forced prostitution, Joy Divisions, the legal right to rape your wife, the culture of sexual harassment, the sometimes unspoken (often not) male suspicion (serving to excuse the rapist and absolve him from guilt) that if a woman is raped it's because she's asking for it, or its because of how she was dressed...

How long have you got? Your grandfather perpetuated a lot of that. That's ok, it was the nature of the times. He didn't know any better. He probably thought I was ok to use grandma as a servant, to beat her when she didn't perform to his requirements and to rape old grandma if she had a headache but he felt horny.

Tradition is the crock of shit that ape men use to cling on to the past because they're afraid of change.

Don't give your seat up to me. Don't open doors for me. Respect me as an equal.
Your argument rings false to me, to the point where it isn't an argument. I have never and would never say it was ok to rape. Beat Grandma? out of the question. Servant? No.

As I go further on in my life and see what "enlightened" behaviors modernity foists on us I just shake my head. In reality, 99% of married women would be tickled pink if their husbands treated them the way my grandfather treated grandma.

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Your grandfather perpetuated a lot of that.
No. He did not perpetuate any of the things you so freely and flippantly accuse him of.

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Tradition is the crock of shit that ape men use to cling on to the past because they're afraid of change.

Don't give your seat up to me. Don't open doors for me. Respect me as an equal.
A bit bitter sounding?

As far as change - I change where it makes sense, and it's always balanced by my belief system.

Change isn't always a good thing, and it often takes some hard perspective to learn that lesson.

As for holding doors or other common courtesies I'm rarely on a train or bus, but I have given up my seat for both women and men. I hold doors for everyone. If I hold a door for you it's not because I think you are incapable of opening a door for yourself.

As far as "respect me as an equal", that goes back to my question much earlier - What and how do you define equal?

Equal pay for equal work? FIne. Equal pay regardless? Not so much.
Equal chance between women and men for jobs where they are qualified? FIne.

But then there should be an acceptance that there are still venues where there can be no equality.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:53 PM
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As far as I'm concerned equality between the sexes can only be a good thing. I'd even go so far as to let women get jobs. Obviously only once they've the housework but still, open it up to them I say.
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:59 AM
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("...ah no, they were clever there, they let you all bicker over these inequalities as seen, these inequalities that they decide upon for you and that serves their purpose still, those of what it means to be male or female, black or white, even old or young today..." ventured the goblin thinking upon it now then explaining "...yet rather than raising women to the level of their male counterparts, rather than raising blacks up or old folks for that matter, instead they've let women into the workplace, blacks into the workplace, and raised the retirement age while actually lowering the security of tenure that anyone holds over their own profession, in short then, whether today you are male or female, black or white, or just waiting for a retirement that seems increasingly like the end of the rainbow, they can promptly cut your job from you in any restructuring that they see fit, where outsourcing abroad and the increase of contract work reflect the true nature of this their ruse in our midst...")

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Old 03-18-2016, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Your argument rings false to me, to the point where it isn't an argument. I have never and would never say it was ok to rape. Beat Grandma? out of the question. Servant? No.
Why false? You cited tradition. I cited a few examples of things that were traditionally acceptable in the past. It was only comparatively recently here in the uk that raping your wife was made a criminal offence. before that,a woman was supposed to do her duty in the bedroom whether she wanted to or not. We have had to fight for every right that men have considered their natural right. Grandpa may not have jumped grandma when she wasn't in the mood, or beaten her for being so uncooperative, but you can bet your life that if he had, he and his peers would have agreed that she was the one in the wrong.


Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
A bit bitter sounding?
Not bitterness but frustration that even in the 21st century we even have to have this discussion.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
As far as change - I change where it makes sense, and it's always balanced by my belief system.
It is your belief system that foisted the fairytale of creation and the idea that women are a secondary species, made from a leftover and un-needed part of man.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Change isn't always a good thing, and it often takes some hard perspective to learn that lesson.
Give me an example. Show me how women expecting equal rights isn't a good thing.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
As far as "respect me as an equal", that goes back to my question much earlier - What and how do you define equal?
I expect not to be treated as a second class citizen.

I expect that if you and I both go for the same job, we both get equal consideration, and if we're both doing the same job we get the same wage.

I expect my opinions to be taken seriously and not to be dismissed because of my gender.

I expect to be able to dress any way I please and go anywhere I want without the threat of sexual harassment or assault.

This could go on for some time, but that'll do for starters.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
But then there should be an acceptance that there are still venues where there can be no equality.
For instance?
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:48 AM
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Discrimination is experienced differently in different cultures and countries. You only realise how powerless you are when you are on the receiving end of an unfair act.

Some of the experiences I had in the work environment:

A woman stops thinking logically the moment she becomes pregnant, regardless of previous achievements.
A woman must not show any emotion in the workplace, does not matter what a man says or does.
It is a woman’s responsibility to ensure a man is successful, does not matter if he is her junior or senior.
A woman does not deserve a market-related (or male-related) salary, it is her husband responsibility look after her.

I am leaving the best for last. “In my culture, a woman must be respectful towards men.” Apparently this is not negotiable and women must not expect respect, as his culture does not allow for respect towards women.” (This was not said in the good old days, this was said two weeks ago in a board meeting, nobody said anything, it seems it is okay to hide behind your culture.)

Just have a look at the newly amended law on rape in Germany, under the old regulations, the victim had to protest both physically and verbally to prove a rape attempt. This has been changed to only requiring a spoken refusal, and that country is run by a woman.

Discrimination about the abuse of power.
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:36 PM
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Wyff - Why false? You cited tradition. I cited a few examples of things that were traditionally acceptable in the past.
You chose to make a personal attack, and you said that my grandfather, who you don't know did these things. You didn't generalize.

.
Wyff: It was only comparatively recently here in the uk that raping your wife was made a criminal offence. before that,a woman was supposed to do her duty in the bedroom whether she wanted to or not.
So? That's not my society and not how I was raised. Again, nothing to do with my circle. So again, you are projecting. It's a false narrative that has nothing to do with me.

Grandpa may not have jumped grandma when she wasn't in the mood, or beaten her for being so uncooperative, but you can bet your life that if he had, he and his peers would have agreed that she was the one in the wrong.
Again, no. that wasn't my grandparents culture, or my parents. The only place I'd ever observed that was at the extreme ends of the social/monetary spectrum. My grandfather had an immense amount of respect for my grandmother, as my dad did for my mom. You can respect your wife, treat her well and still understand that you are not equal in various ways.


When it came to defining equal, you could only come to an obvious - equal pay for equal work, and getting an equal opportunity.

I've only worked for several places that had equal pay. That might be acceptable to someone if they''re a union or government worker, but in my field of endeavor level of pay is typically meritocratic. If it isn't, moral sucks. If the guy that has designs three patented items and a coworker has zero, and they stay at the same pay, the guy that is excelling will likely move on.

And you wanted to know venues where women aren't equal to men?

Combat Arms

Firefighting (structural)- yes, there are some women that are good firefighters, but that is a case of the exception doesn't come close to proving the rule.

I could go on.....
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Old 03-18-2016, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
And you wanted to know venues where women aren't equal to men?

Combat Arms

Firefighting (structural)- yes, there are some women that are good firefighters, but that is a case of the exception doesn't come close to proving the rule.

I could go on.....

You forgot WWE wrestler and gay porn actor.

Oh, and, day laborer. Women aren't good at that. I think it's the whole standing around in the parking lot of a Home Depot for hours, waiting for a white pickup to honk them over.
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Old 03-19-2016, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
You chose to make a personal attack, and you said that my grandfather, who you don't know did these things. You didn't generalize.
I didn't attack anything except your attitude. I was using your grandfather as an example of his generation. And to be honest, having been in abusive relationships, he could have been guilty of all of that and more and his little grandson would have been as ignorant of it then as he is now.

And that isn't an attack or slur or insult, it's a truthful observation. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

And to deny that you are aware of such things happening in your circle doesn't mean they don't happen in your circle or anywhere else. If they didn't, we wouldn't be changing laws, would we?


Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I could go on.....
Please do, but I reserve the right to collect all your comments and publish them under the title "Ramblings of a Dinosaur".

I almost forgot, I know 2 female firefighters and know of several more. But that's what happens when women aren't discriminated against in the workplace - the get to do the boy jobs. And do them very well. They said the physical training was gruelling and several guys dropped out.

And more and more women are filling key roles in the armed forces too. Poor you, are you scared because your masculinity is being eroded?
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How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself. ~ Anais Nin

Last edited by wyf; 03-19-2016 at 02:07 AM..
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  #30  
Old 03-19-2016, 03:32 AM
Binx B
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Oh, boy. I just can't wait for the "Intellectual" Table to open.
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