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  #31  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
How about dark matter have you guys been able to figure that one out yet? Yeah, I don't think you're ready to define god.
I've an uninformed hypothesis about dark matter/energy. I'll start a new thread for it though.

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  #32  
Old 09-10-2017, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Be glad to. He always answers my prayers. One day I was walking through a field and saw a horse and prayed to the Almighty to be endowed thusly, and the Almighty delivered! Too bad it was a female horse and He doesn't seem to answer take-backs.
Ah yes, one time I met this farmer at a bar and he looked kind of glum, so I asked him what was up and he sez, "It's my horse, it is so sad all the time, nothing I do can cheer it up". So I was all like, "Give me a try, I'm sure I can brighten it up".

So the next day at the farm I walk over to the horse and whisper something in its ear and the horse starts pissing itself laughing. The farmer thanks me and sees me on my way.

A few weeks later I am back that way, and once again I find the farmer in the bar, and he looks glum, and I'm all like, "Is everything ok?", and he's all like, "Nah, ever since you got my horse laughing it won't actually stop, at least when it was sad I could still get it doing some work". So I'm all like, "I could make it sad again if you like".

So the next day at the farm I walk over to the horse and suddenly the horse stops laughing and is sad again. Before the farmer sees me on my way he's all like, "PickleBottom, I need to know how you did that, how you made my horse laugh and then how you made it sad again". I was all like, "that's simple, to make the horse laugh I told the horse that I had a bigger dick than what it has, to make it sad again I showed it to him, proving it"

Budda ching!
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  #33  
Old 09-11-2017, 01:14 AM
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I wouldn't urge anyone to pick a side.

And I have flirted with the idea of agnosticism. But the problem is for me that there's no point in holding something that you don't know. You don't know that there isn't a planet somewhere in the universe entirely composed of ice cream, but you might as well assume that there isn't, since it doesn't in any way fit into any model that we have in reality, or the physical laws which seem to govern things.

If I toy with the existence of God I must then toy with the existence of anything imaginable which doesn't have to be subject to evidence or logic. Therefore it's not a position I can take.

Everything has to be presented at the alter of evidence and logic, and here we discover what is known, and argue the points of contention which are debatable, and what makes them debatable in the first place is that they are within the realms of evidence and logic, the knowable. Anything else, i.e: the unknowable has to be treated differently and can't really go beyond the subject of speculation. I don't think these two categories should become confused.

I would say there is plenty of philosophical value to gain from studying religion however, for me I just don't take it literally. Mr Peterson might be over analysing certain things in this series but I found it very entertaining to watch someone who is obviously hyper-intelligent try to extract the philosophical meanings out of scripture in a rational way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w&t=1319s
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  #34  
Old 09-11-2017, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
I don't see anything wrong with updating a word and expanding on the definition as we learn more and more about the universe; life is about moving forward. We know so little and yet we make claims to understand something that is greater than anything that can be conceived. We don't even know everything that is in existence so how can we know what is greatest?

As far as I am concerned the definition of god should just have a question mark beside it and a blurb that says: are you still figuring out gender and race issues? Have you come to a global understanding on your ability to affect climate? How about dark matter have you guys been able to figure that one out yet? Yeah, I don't think you're ready to define god.
We can't "expand" on the existing definition of the word 'god' . If we're talking about god being "a small part of a physics equation" then the title of 'god' no longer defines those reduced circumstances and isn't "updating a word and expanding on its definition" as you suggest.

Generally, people seem to either fall on the side of Darwinism or god - I haven't come across your argument that "god could only have been created because of the big bang." If god came out of the big bang, then god evolved - and would have a lineage in the same way as every other species. If god evolved, then something existed before god as the initial catalyst . So god is no longer eternal, immortal or timeless or the creative power. All those elements are components of the succinct defining word 'god' in any language.

I agree with your first assertion that we know too little to be resolute one way or another - but ignoring or trying to redefine the accepted purport of the term 'god' makes your argument incoherent.

There isn't a middle ground to argue the case - only the opportunity to assert something entirely different.
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  #35  
Old 09-11-2017, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Be glad to. He always answers my prayers. One day I was walking through a field and saw a horse and prayed to the Almighty to be endowed thusly, and the Almighty delivered! Too bad it was a female horse and He doesn't seem to answer take-backs.
Definitively a different God.

I remember being in a few bad scrapes and trying to bargain with him -- I'll stop doing this if you get me out of this one etc. It never worked.

Of course, being omniscient and all, he probably knew I was full of shit.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
We can't "expand" on the existing definition of the word 'god' . If we're talking about god being "a small part of a physics equation" then the title of 'god' no longer defines those reduced circumstances and isn't "updating a word and expanding on its definition" as you suggest.

Generally, people seem to either fall on the side of Darwinism or god - I haven't come across your argument that "god could only have been created because of the big bang." If god came out of the big bang, then god evolved - and would have a lineage in the same way as every other species. If god evolved, then something existed before god as the initial catalyst . So god is no longer eternal, immortal or timeless or the creative power. All those elements are components of the succinct defining word 'god' in any language.

I agree with your first assertion that we know too little to be resolute one way or another - but ignoring or trying to redefine the accepted purport of the term 'god' makes your argument incoherent.

There isn't a middle ground to argue the case - only the opportunity to assert something entirely different.
You are only defining god from a monotheistic religion's perspective, I am not.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
I wouldn't urge anyone to pick a side.

And I have flirted with the idea of agnosticism. But the problem is for me that there's no point in holding something that you don't know. You don't know that there isn't a planet somewhere in the universe entirely composed of ice cream, but you might as well assume that there isn't, since it doesn't in any way fit into any model that we have in reality, or the physical laws which seem to govern things.

If I toy with the existence of God I must then toy with the existence of anything imaginable which doesn't have to be subject to evidence or logic. Therefore it's not a position I can take.

Everything has to be presented at the alter of evidence and logic, and here we discover what is known, and argue the points of contention which are debatable, and what makes them debatable in the first place is that they are within the realms of evidence and logic, the knowable. Anything else, i.e: the unknowable has to be treated differently and can't really go beyond the subject of speculation. I don't think these two categories should become confused.

I would say there is plenty of philosophical value to gain from studying religion however, for me I just don't take it literally. Mr Peterson might be over analysing certain things in this series but I found it very entertaining to watch someone who is obviously hyper-intelligent try to extract the philosophical meanings out of scripture in a rational way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w&t=1319s
I really like this answer, well said man! I am an agnostic atheist so I do understand that to consider it is toeing the line of logic.
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  #38  
Old 09-11-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
*Snippity snip snip snip!
Generally, people seem to either fall on the side of Darwinism or god
*Never have safety scissors worked so well!*
Let me introduce you to Deism, A movement popular during the 17th and 18th century. Supposedly, said creator was so bored with life he/she created a universe. Added in natural laws, physics, what have you, so that it could create and sustain life. Then he/she packed it up in a metaphorical box and never looked at it again.

In layman terms, a god or creator who does not interfere with the universe aside from creating it.

It's genius is that it could explain what we know as the universe today,and not really completely disregard any other religions.

Not as a counter argument, just a little factoid I thought beneficial to the debate.
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  #39  
Old 09-12-2017, 04:32 AM
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Seeking a serious response: Has anyone in this discussion seen an apparition of a departed loved one (or any other spirit) or heard the voice of a discarnate? If so, what would be your reaction? Would you believe a close friend if he or she described a supernatural event to you? Would you be inclined to laugh at your friend (or relative)? Shrug off his/her comments? Or explore the situation further with that person?
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:35 AM
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"...yes, headaches headaches headaches, where either you experience them or you're clueless as to their reality for all your speculations..." repeated the goblin in all practicality over his coffee this lunchtime, then adding "...either way then, the real question is not whether god exists to you, but more the question of whether you're up for sale towards his rewards and his punishments, I mean does one really need reward to do something good knowing that it is such, conversely there are times when one knows that it's not good in itself but it's a necessary evil all the same..."

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Old 09-12-2017, 09:56 AM
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Even when a person does experience supernatural occurrences, he or she is still clueless to what is really taking place. As in any other field, when one door opens, well, then, ten others appear. And when one of the ten is opened, there one finds twenty more. This is life itself, as vast as the universe. There isn't "any-getting-to-the-bottom-of-it." No way, at all. The best one may do is apply inner self-discoveries with outer curiosities. One may try to learn as much as possible about something, but one will never learn everything about it. But, not investigating the matter thoroughly is denying oneself an opportunity to learn.

Naturally, everyone is "fixed" in his or her ways. And if someone feels he will be wasting his time investing it in one particular field, well, then, that is that. No need to go further. But, with all due respect, his or her study must be labeled "inconclusive." There cannot be any "I knows" tossed around as truths. There are far too many galaxies and worlds out there for a "grain a sand" to wrap his brain around. Don't you think?

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  #42  
Old 09-12-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Seeking a serious response: Has anyone in this discussion seen an apparition of a departed loved one (or any other spirit) or heard the voice of a discarnate? If so, what would be your reaction? Would you believe a close friend if he or she described a supernatural event to you? Would you be inclined to laugh at your friend (or relative)? Shrug off his/her comments? Or explore the situation further with that person?
My family (on my mother's side) has seen a large amount of these physical apparitions. My great grandmother said she saw little angels on a regular basis, and actually saw them the day she died. Likewise, my great aunt saw my great grandmother (who had passed away several months prior) sitting in her rocking chair. Personally, I haven't seen much, but that doesn't mean anything. My great aunt had no monetary (and on that side of the family, dickering and trading is first) incentive to say something like that, So I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Should I ever see such an apparition, I believe I would be mildly shocked, as it seems to me that most people who see ghosts or apparitions of that kind either are on the brink of death or are close to where a person died recently. But I don't really know.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Seeking a serious response: Has anyone in this discussion seen an apparition of a departed loved one (or any other spirit) or heard the voice of a discarnate? If so, what would be your reaction? Would you believe a close friend if he or she described a supernatural event to you? Would you be inclined to laugh at your friend (or relative)? Shrug off his/her comments? Or explore the situation further with that person?
My sister claims to hear our mom. It bothers me.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:42 PM
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Lockette, you hit the bullseye with your response. And trust your family members. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, a nurse in a hospice, who pioneered studying the dying, wrote about many of her patients. She gives numerous accounts of dying patients calling out to deceased love ones surrounding their beds. Ms. Kubler-Ross is the author of three or four incredible books about the topic. Following up her work on the subject is David Kessler, who was at Ms. Kubler-Ross' bedside when she passed away. Mr. Kessler himself has written a book about dying and death titled "Visions, Trips, and Crowded Rooms: Who and What You See Before You Die."

Personally, I have been at the bedside of a few dying people whose actions were no different from those that Ms. Ross and Mr. Kessler describe. But, apparitions and voices are just the tip of the iceberg. Once, a person has a bit of success contacting the "other side," the success propels him or her to seek more. It's almost like a writer having his/her first book published. The taste of success becomes a driving force for more.

David Kessler, one of the most renowned experts on death and grief, takes on three uniquely shared experiences that challenge our ability to explain and fully understand the mystery of our final days. The first is “visions.” As the dying lose sight of this world, some people appear to be looking into the world to come.
The second shared experience is getting ready for a “trip.” The phenomenon of preparing oneself for a journey isn’t new or unusual. In fact, during our loved ones’ last hours, they may often think of their impending death as a transition or journey. These trips may seem to us to be all about leaving, but for the dying, they may be more about arriving.
Finally, the third phenomenon is “crowded rooms.” The dying often talk about seeing a room full of people, as they constantly repeat the word crowded. In truth, we never die alone. Just as loving hands greeted us when we were born, so will loving arms embrace us when we die.
In the tapestry of life and death, we may begin to see connections to the past that we missed in life. While death may look like a loss to the living, the last hours of a dying person may be filled with fullness rather than emptiness. In this fascinating book, which includes a new Afterword, Kessler brings us stunning stories from the bedsides of the dying that will educate, enlighten, and comfort us all.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:52 PM
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On Death And Dying ...

About the Author

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, MD, [1926–2004] was a Swiss-born psychiatrist, humanitarian, and co-founder of the hospice movement around the world. She was also the author of the groundbreaking book On Death and Dying, which first discussed The Five Stages of Grief. Elisabeth authored twenty-four books in thirty-six languages and brought comfort to millions of people coping with their own deaths or the death of a loved one. Her greatest professional legacy includes teaching the practice of humane care for the dying and the importance of sharing unconditional love. Her work continues by the efforts of hundreds of organizations around the world, including The Elisabeth Kübler-Ross Foundation: EKRFoundation.org.

Ira Byock, MD, is a leading palliative care physician, author, and public advocate for improving care through the end of life. His research and writing have helped to define quality of life and quality of care for people living with advanced medical conditions. He has been involved in hospice and palliative care since 1978 and is a founding member and past president of the American Academy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine. From 1996 through 2006, he served as Director for Promoting Excellence in End-of-Life Care, a national grant program of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Dr. Byock is Chief Medical Officer of the Institute for Human Caring of Providence Health and Services system. From 2003 through July 2013 he directed the palliative care program at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon, New Hampshire. Dr. Byock is a Professor of Medicine and Community & Family Medicine at the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:32 AM
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(“...surely, if something is real in my own head, then why do I have to find its reality outside my head too just to prove it to myself that it's really real to me, I mean wasn't that carl jung's point all along, so “real” to me it just what strikes me as real in my own words now, or real in one's own world as carl put it, no the rest is just like some old philosopher's hangup between us, just their viewpoints at best, but not what we actually experience for all its being a reality to others perhaps...” remarked the goblin to a ghost seated casually opposite him at this point, while the ghost for its part thought over the goblin's words for a moment, then replied “...you know goblin when you think about it's the same for us ghosts too I guess, I mean your world is like our future reality that has nothing to do with us though, being a future we have no part of then, a world we'll never get to know neither, yes, it's still there as your dailylife perhaps, with you and I conversing like this on forumland instead, being your other reality of me now, but that dailylife of yours not my reality goblin, yet do we ghosts ever go around saying that your dailylife just isn't real because we're not in it still, nope its just we're all “dead and gone” to you while you're “dead are still there” to us, death is a two way street goblin, dead in both direction then, that it now...”, but doesn't everything continue ever on into its unrecognition anyway, as the goblin took a long sip from his coffee cup and would have shrugged if he wasn't holding it tightly, yet the ghost just couldn't have been any more real he thought)

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Old 09-14-2017, 09:22 AM
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Flea, the well is too deep. There isn't a bucket, regardless whether it belongs to Darwin, Jung, Einstein, or Tesla, that can reach the bottom. Years ago, my curiosity opened a whole new world to me. I've had many of what most would refer to as "supernatural occurrences." Things were getting so out of control, and going at it alone without professional guidance (a guru), I was forced to walk away from the scene. That's my story.

As for Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, the lady spent her entire lifetime serving others from a nurse who witnessed the horrors of liberated Nazi death camps to a psychiatrist working with severe mentally ill patients in New York City. She then went on to work in a hospice, comforting the dying. She told this story about one of patients who died. (And this is a woman who didn't have a horse in the race to prove or disprove the existence of God). She was sitting behind the desk in her office when a woman walked in. Ms. Ross recognized the woman as one of her patients who died. The woman returned to tell Ms. Ross how grateful she was to Ms. Ross for taking care of her during her last days on earth. Knowing the woman had died, Ms. Ross even touched her because she couldn't believe it herself. Now this story is from a woman who spent her entire lifetime up front in the trenches with death. She wasn't a Monday morning quarterback and certainly had no reason to lie.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:25 AM
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People must weigh the evidence, but it does help to search for it. I'll leave it there. Not looking to disrupt any apple carts.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
I don't see anything wrong with updating a word and expanding on the definition as we learn more and more about the universe; life is about moving forward. We know so little and yet we make claims to understand something that is greater than anything that can be conceived. We don't even know everything that is in existence so how can we know what is greatest?

As far as I am concerned the definition of god should just have a question mark beside it and a blurb that says: are you still figuring out gender and race issues? Have you come to a global understanding on your ability to affect climate? How about dark matter have you guys been able to figure that one out yet? Yeah, I don't think you're ready to define god.
An issue with the definition of God changing until every person settles on a definition that they can accept is that this does not lead to any dogma.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:55 AM
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People use arguments like that about the definition of marriage as well.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:56 AM
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I am only saying the word evolve as we come to understand more about the universe.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
People use arguments like that about the definition of marriage as well.
Yes, but the purpose of marriage is life long commitment, what is the purpose of the belief in God? If it is to acknowledge that God is a non-interacting hypothesis? What should a person do with that knowledge?
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
You are only defining god from a monotheistic religion's perspective, I am not.
Define the word god from ANY religious perspective and its purport will still be too great to try and re-apply its meaning to define "part of a physics equation."

Just semantics - but as I said before, if you're seeking to offer a new explanation for creation and want to divorce it from current religious interpretation - the G word needs to be ditched for some other terminology.
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Old 09-15-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Define the word god from ANY religious perspective and its purport will still be too great to try and re-apply its meaning to define "part of a physics equation."

Just semantics - but as I said before, if you're seeking to offer a new explanation for creation and want to divorce it from current religious interpretation - the G word needs to be ditched for some other terminology.
Let's call it "Vagina the Bringer of Life"

Oh and for gay people who want to be married, let's call their union butt buddies and fishing friends. JK! Don't mind me.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Let's call it "Vagina the Bringer of Life"

Oh and for gay people who want to be married, let's call their union butt buddies and fishing friends. JK! Don't mind me.
People do call gay unions these terms, but I'm not sure what this has to do with gay marriage?
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:55 PM
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A man dies and goes to heaven which is like a waiting room. After a few minutes a man in a white coat breezes through from one door to another. Man asks the person next to him, 'Who was that?"
'That was God. He thinks he's a doctor.'
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Old 09-16-2017, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Let's call it "Vagina the Bringer of Life"

Oh and for gay people who want to be married, let's call their union butt buddies and fishing friends. JK! Don't mind me.
We have a word for "vagina the bringer of life"......mother

And a word to explain "gay people who want to get married"... love.

I don't see the relevance of your remarks either.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:26 AM
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[QUOTE=Grace Gabriel;736904]We have a word for "vagina the bringer of life"......mother

And a word to explain "gay people who want to get married"... love.

I don't see the relevance of your remarks

*I drew a connection between you saying we can't change the definition of the word god to people who say gays should have their own word for marriage because the union of marriage is between "a man and woman." Now that we understand being gay isn't a choice, the definition of marriage changed to the loving union between to consenting adults who are in love. If we find out what god is than we can update the word or add to the growing definition; that is all.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:36 AM
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[QUOTE=Loser&Loner;736907]
Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
We have a word for "vagina the bringer of life"......mother

And a word to explain "gay people who want to get married"... love.

I don't see the relevance of your remarks

*I drew a connection between you saying we can't change the definition of the word god to people who say gays should have their own word for marriage because the union of marriage is between "a man and woman." Now that we understand being gay isn't a choice, the definition of marriage changed to the loving union between to consenting adults who are in love. If we find out what god is than we can update the word or add to the growing definition; that is all.
Okay...I can see what you were getting at now.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:39 AM
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[QUOTE=Grace Gabriel;736908]
Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post

Okay...I can see what you were getting at now.
That's because you're awesome!
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