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  #1  
Old 09-09-2017, 03:54 PM
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Default Agnostics


It is a curious thing, whenever I tell an atheist or theist I am agnostic they call me wishy washy and demand I choose a side.

Why is moderation so confusing to people?* The universe is massive and we know so little of it, of course our definition of "god" lacks the depth needed to comprehend such a thing.

Our sun will die one day. If we want to find God, we should stop looking in old dusty books and traverse the universe. The planet isn't ours; it's just is.

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Old 09-09-2017, 04:28 PM
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I'm with you.

I've been accused of being to wishy washy simply because I'm tolerant of religion and see some good in it -- as long as people mind their own business.

I'm also intrigued by the complexity of life and the universe -- it really is hard to believe it was all random.

Of course, it's a fantastic leap from some mysterious intelligent force to all the specific myths involving anthropomorphic gods etc.

Day to day -- it doesn't really make any difference. It's something I rarely discuss with anyone in my circle. I think the only place people have tried to call me out on any of this is online -- and that's always optional.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:28 PM
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I've decided to convert to Mormonism. I find their story compelling.

You homos need to pick a side😀
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
It is a curious thing, whenever I tell an atheist or theist I am agnostic they call me wishy washy and demand I choose a side.

Why is moderation so confusing to people?* The universe is massive and we know so little of it, of course our definition of "god" lacks the depth needed to comprehend such a thing.

Our sun will die one day. If we want to find God, we should stop looking in old dusty books and traverse the universe. The planet isn't ours; it's just is.
I can't really call myself agnostic as I know the answer.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I can't really call myself agnostic as I know the answer.


Does it involve the angel Moroni, and some golden tablets? If not, I've wasted a lot of money on these protective undergarments.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:30 AM
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("...I know god..." smiled the goblin without even the slightest clue as to what he knew in fact, repeating "...I mean who doesn't know death in one form or another, yet no one goes around saying that they actually believe in death now, no they just know death without knowing what they know by it, so I'm like that then, I know god where my actions are not done towards what comes afterwards, naah I'm not bought nor swayed by such promises...")

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Old 09-10-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I can't really call myself agnostic as I know the answer.
How can you know? The definition of god could just be incomplete? Like what if God could only exist in the minds of humans; that is still existance, especially because so many actions are carried out based on that belief.
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:39 AM
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"...if you get headaches yourself then you know what a headache is without speculation as to its existance, however, if you've never had a headache in your life then you not going to understand, nor believe neither, that headaches are for real, same difference about knowing god I suppose..." smiled the goblin, adding "...thus either you know so you don't believe, or you believe so you don't know, so now which is it for you really if you are someone of the faith I wonder..."

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Old 09-10-2017, 11:44 AM
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Agnostic has a greek root meaning unknowable or unknown. I believe it was a jest.


In all seriousness, I'm an agnostic. There HAS to be a ghost in the machines, so to speak. As to what that ghost is, I have no idea, nor do I really care. Or perhaps not, perhaps the Big Bang was simply there. I feel like the afterlife is something to worry about, after life. Not during, because you become so involved in doing good to be in paradise in the afterlife that you forget to look for paradise in real life.

In my immediate social circle, no one is intelligent enough to know what an agnostic is, much less tell me I'm wishy washy.
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:59 AM
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I believe in a white bearded man up in the sky who loves us so completely He had us kill His only son so that he could forgive us our sins. He's only God, after all. How could He possibly forgive us unless His son died first? Wouldn't make any sense. Not like He could just find it in His almighty heart to forgive us without bloodshed, could He? Especially since he's God and knows everything - knew we'd sin and made us that way all the same... No wonder He got mad at us!

Reminds me of the time He justly ejected Adam and Eve from Eden. I mean, He TOLD them not to! Just because he hadn't given them the ability to know right from wrong and they only gained that capacity once they'd partaken of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean He wasn't rightfully pissed. I mean, what parent wouldn't boot their newborn baby out for going doing what they explicitly told it not to do? Only fair.

Yep, my God is a good and just God, fulsome with rationale and fairness, with wisdom and patience, a nurturing and tolerant old bugger for whom the world spins only so He can make sure everyone is praying as per His wish.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
I believe in a white bearded man up in the sky who loves us so completely He had us kill His only son so that he could forgive us our sins. He's only God, after all. How could He possibly forgive us unless His son died first? Wouldn't make any sense. Not like He could just find it in His almighty heart to forgive us without bloodshed, could He? Especially since he's God and knows everything - knew we'd sin and made us that way all the same... No wonder He got mad at us!

Reminds me of the time He justly ejected Adam and Eve from Eden. I mean, He TOLD them not to! Just because he hadn't given them the ability to know right from wrong and they only gained that capacity once they'd partaken of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean He wasn't rightfully pissed. I mean, what parent wouldn't boot their newborn baby out for going doing what they explicitly told it not to do? Only fair.

Yep, my God is a good and just God, fulsome with rationale and fairness, with wisdom and patience, a nurturing and tolerant old bugger for whom the world spins only so He can make sure everyone is praying as per His wish.
Let's avoid looking at any particular religion, I intend to discuss this rationally and that isn't possible if we go into specifics.
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Old 09-10-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Let's avoid looking at any particular religion, I intend to discuss this rationally and that isn't possible if we go into specifics.


The rationality of any mythology or religion is just not there scientifically. And in fact mostly explainable wrt motivation.

I agree the world/universe/cosmos is an awesome place, and science does not and may not ever have all the answers, but agnostic IMO is just an insurance policy.

Nothing wrong in believing in a higher power of it helps one in their life. There are demonstrable benefits to many humans with these beliefs.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
How can you know? The definition of god could just be incomplete? Like what if God could only exist in the minds of humans; that is still existance, especially because so many actions are carried out based on that belief.
All the same difficulties that Descartes and Anselm encountered...If God only exists in the mind, God is trumped by anything that exists in reality.

A belief might govern our actions - but a god that only exists in the mind isn't capable of creation - isn't omniscient.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
How can you know? The definition of god could just be incomplete? Like what if God could only exist in the minds of humans; that is still existance, especially because so many actions are carried out based on that belief.

Excellent answer. In my opinion, Agnostics don't bolt doors and are serious thinkers. I know of an Agnostic writer who started a book to debunk spiritual healers. It turned out the more deeper she dug into the spiritual-healing scene, the more she believed it because the healings were occurring right before her eyes. She ended up writing many books about the healing power of the Holy Spirit through the healers. Although she wasn't a channel herself for spiritual healing, she healed many through prayers. The woman, long deceased, had an incredible life. I guess some solid advice for all would be to seek first before drawing conclusions. In her case, she sought to expose fraudulent activities in a book, but she couldn't ignore the healings taking place right before her eyes.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Lockette View Post
Agnostic has a greek root meaning unknowable or unknown. I believe it was a jest.


In all seriousness, I'm an agnostic. There HAS to be a ghost in the machines, so to speak. As to what that ghost is, I have no idea, nor do I really care. Or perhaps not, perhaps the Big Bang was simply there. I feel like the afterlife is something to worry about, after life. Not during, because you become so involved in doing good to be in paradise in the afterlife that you forget to look for paradise in real life.

In my immediate social circle, no one is intelligent enough to know what an agnostic is, much less tell me I'm wishy washy.
Excellent answer also. Standing away from "the religious can of worms," I would just like to mention that Jesus told His disciples to serve others and heal the sick. Although He did preach about His Heavenly Father and the Afterlife, His earthly mission was to make life better for the ordinary person. If anyone crippled or blind was the recipient of a healing, one might make a case that the healed person received "a slice of paradise in real life."

Nobody seeks God in "dusty" books. The words of the Prophets inspire believers. And "The old man with a long white beard" to describe God is getting a bit "old" itself. Seek and find -- search yourself and draw your own conclusions. Faith plays a major role in a believer's life. On the other hand, atheists have the right to also draw there own conclusions too. Whenever a person goes on a crusade to prove the other wrong and himself right (especially without doing his homework), then the water gets really murky. And it's best to go find another swimming hole, a cleaner one.

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Old 09-10-2017, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Excellent answer. In my opinion, Agnostics don't bolt doors and are serious thinkers. I know of an Agnostic writer who started a book to debunk spiritual healers. It turned out the more deeper she dug into the spiritual-healing scene, the more she believed it because the healings were occurring right before her eyes. She ended up writing many books about the healing power of the Holy Spirit through the healers. Although she wasn't a channel herself for spiritual healing, she healed many through prayers. The woman, long deceased, had an incredible life. I guess some solid advice for all would be to seek first before drawing conclusions. In her case, she sought to expose fraudulent activities in a book, but she couldn't ignore the healings taking place right before her eyes.
She sounds reasonable.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
I believe in a white bearded man up in the sky who loves us so completely He had us kill His only son so that he could forgive us our sins. He's only God, after all. How could He possibly forgive us unless His son died first? Wouldn't make any sense. Not like He could just find it in His almighty heart to forgive us without bloodshed, could He? Especially since he's God and knows everything - knew we'd sin and made us that way all the same... No wonder He got mad at us!

Reminds me of the time He justly ejected Adam and Eve from Eden. I mean, He TOLD them not to! Just because he hadn't given them the ability to know right from wrong and they only gained that capacity once they'd partaken of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean He wasn't rightfully pissed. I mean, what parent wouldn't boot their newborn baby out for going doing what they explicitly told it not to do? Only fair.

Yep, my God is a good and just God, fulsome with rationale and fairness, with wisdom and patience, a nurturing and tolerant old bugger for whom the world spins only so He can make sure everyone is praying as per His wish.
Do you mind asking your God if he can make that hurricane take hard left into Alabama?

I'd appreciate it.

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Old 09-10-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Do you mind asking your God if he make that hurricane take hard left into Alabama?

I'd appreciate it.
God said he was answering the prayer of an African slave a hundred or so years ago and that he's sorry, he is just really far behind on prayers.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
All the same difficulties that Descartes and Anselm encountered...If God only exists in the mind, God is trumped by anything that exists in reality.

A belief might govern our actions - but a god that only exists in the mind isn't capable of creation - isn't omniscient.
But it is made literal because it makes people do certain things. In physics work can be measured through energy expansion, transference, depletion, and force, if god is the root cause of people doing certain feats doesn’t that make it real? I think people are focusing too heavily on god being an intelligent sentient creator, when all it could be is a small part of a physics equation. God could have only been created because of the big bang, it might not have been the cause.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
God said he was answering the prayer of an African slave a hundred or so years ago and that he's sorry, he is just really far behind on prayers.
Yeah -- I'm guessing he gets a little bumbed out in the morning when he looks at his "in" box.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:11 PM
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People said Clapton was God -- until they heard Jimi Hendrix.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
How can you know? The definition of god could just be incomplete? Like what if God could only exist in the minds of humans; that is still existance, especially because so many actions are carried out based on that belief.
I think you are presuming that my stance is that God does not exist, but, why not look at the description of the God of The Old Testament and the world created for us and in which we live. We find a one-to-one relationship between the greedy, jealous, narcissistic, and terrible God of The Old Testament and the people in power who create and rule over the world in which we live. Behold, the Demiurge of Gnosticism exists.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:25 PM
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God is great. God is good, and we thank Him for our food.

What?

That's when I started to have my doubts -- because that doesn't even rhyme.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
But it is made literal because it makes people do certain things. In physics work can be measured through energy expansion, transference, depletion, and force, if god is the root cause of people doing certain feats doesn’t that make it real? I think people are focusing too heavily on god being an intelligent sentient creator, when all it could be is a small part of a physics equation. God could have only been created because of the big bang, it might not have been the cause.
Then the word 'god' becomes oxymoronic. Whatever language we use, the name God, Theos, Eloah, Elohim, Yahweh etc all translate as expressions of 'the almighty' - or drawing on Anselm's Proslogion - "that which nothing greater can be conceived."

If we're talking about something which is a cog in the workings - or as much created as every other form of life, the name 'god' becomes null and void.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Then the word 'god' becomes oxymoronic. Whatever language we use, the name God, Theos, Eloah, Elohim, Yahweh etc all translate as expressions of 'the almighty' - or drawing on Anselm's Proslogion - "that which nothing greater can be conceived."

If we're talking about something which is a cog in the workings - or as much created as every other form of life, the name 'god' becomes null and void.
I don't see anything wrong with updating a word and expanding on the definition as we learn more and more about the universe; life is about moving forward. We know so little and yet we make claims to understand something that is greater than anything that can be conceived. We don't even know everything that is in existence so how can we know what is greatest?

As far as I am concerned the definition of god should just have a question mark beside it and a blurb that says: are you still figuring out gender and race issues? Have you come to a global understanding on your ability to affect climate? How about dark matter have you guys been able to figure that one out yet? Yeah, I don't think you're ready to define god.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I think you are presuming that my stance is that God does not exist, but, why not look at the description of the God of The Old Testament and the world created for us and in which we live. We find a one-to-one relationship between the greedy, jealous, narcissistic, and terrible God of The Old Testament and the people in power who create and rule over the world in which we live. Behold, the Demiurge of Gnosticism exists.
PickleBottom, your avatar terrifies me, I love it.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
PickleBottom, your avatar terrifies me, I love it.
Thanks, there is an internet phenomena whereby a person creates an online persona and this persona usually attempts to enhance that of their actual persona. This persona does the same thing, it is much more handsome, smarter and younger than I am.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Thanks, there is an internet phenomena whereby a person creates an online persona and this persona usually attempts to enhance that of their actual persona. This persona does the same thing, it is much more handsome, smarter and younger than I am.


Yeah, mine too
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Do you mind asking your God if he can make that hurricane take hard left into Alabama?

I'd appreciate it.
Be glad to. He always answers my prayers. One day I was walking through a field and saw a horse and prayed to the Almighty to be endowed thusly, and the Almighty delivered! Too bad it was a female horse and He doesn't seem to answer take-backs.
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Then the word 'god' becomes oxymoronic. Whatever language we use, the name God, Theos, Eloah, Elohim, Yahweh etc all translate as expressions of 'the almighty' - or drawing on Anselm's Proslogion - "that which nothing greater can be conceived."

If we're talking about something which is a cog in the workings - or as much created as every other form of life, the name 'god' becomes null and void.
Well I'll be damned. Not often you meet someone familiar with Anselm's supposed proof of the existence of God. One thing though: think it was "than" which nothing greater can be conceived. Probably a typo.
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