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Argentina reignites Falklands row.

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  #61  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:09 AM
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Crump, slightly off-topic, but what is meant by 'holding back the tide' in Palestine?

My understanding is we favoured the Zionist state; 'Balfour declaration', suppressed arab dissent in the 30's (we started the bulldozing tactic I believe when they started to grasp what was up). And then handed over to the UN to decree the partition.

Just not sure I can link the phrase. Or do you mean something else?

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  #62  
Old 01-07-2013, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lin View Post
I can't believe those dumb Brits gave up Hong Kong to the New Evil Empire, but go to war over these useless islands in the middle of nowhere
They had to.

Britain took Hong Kong from China in the nineteenth century after they won a war against China for the right to trade in opium. China happened to know the effect opium had on users so they tried to ban all trade in it, but Britain liked the stuff and didn't like having its trade thwarted so it went over there guns blazing and massacred pretty much everyone in sight. Hong Kong was part of the deal China was forced to agree to afterwards.

Funny, how history plays out.

P.S. America doesn't know the meaning of the word bashing. People have been bashing Scotland for centuries but it doesn't bother us because we're secure in our identity and don't really give a shit if the rest of the world thinks our men shag sheep and we all go hunting haggis every January.

Bash away. We don't rile that easy. Maybe America can take a leaf out of our book and not treat every little niggle as a "bashing". What do you think, Yanks? Time to get that thick skin back?
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  #63  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crump View Post
And Mutawintji please note, this is not about 'vengeance', it's about right and wrong. I have to say that until seeing some views on this forum I hadn't known that Britain was so widely misunderstood.
Hi Mate ..... Britain is not misunderstood, understood ?

I know that you are very good at starting provocative threads ... and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But you tease those poor bastards on the other side of the herring pond knowing full well that they are still inching their way into the metric 21st century.

You state that the 'empire' became the commonwealth and so in some sense you never lost empire. This is delusional if you truly believe it and I am sure you don't. When you can no longer control by force, cajole ... Thats what 'Commonwealth' means

There is not one colonial outpost that has not fallen, not one shore you landed on ever, that is not now the worse for your visit. You battened on every peoples resources and claimed them as yours in the name of the 'crown'. And now you have lost all ..

Now there is nothing
not even our rank
to show what we have been
And I must return to Barclay's bank
and you to your margarine.

You phucked culture after culture before you even knew what the word meant ... and most of these were sustainable cultures unlike yours which required the raped resources of every other culture you came across in order to maintain the 'village green'. Christ .... jesu wept !!

And now .... so phuckin funny ..... you are reduced to arguing over a stony rock and claiming it as 'British' ... Mad dogs and englishmen go out in the noon day sun.


Leaving Delhi it was necessary to go north to the border crossing, from memory 24-36 hours on a train ... I shook off the Buddhist Monk. Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, Lahore on the Pakistani side. Now I was entering dangerous territory, but still, a well worn route by people like me.

Pakistan was created by the British in 1947 ... As the partition of India, when they had had were forced to give up the Jewel in the Crown, India ... And unbeknownst in 1947, give up not only the Indian empire, but additionally, all Empire.

By anyone's standards, anyone at all, they, the British showed incompetence on a scale that was little short of planned treachery. They came up with the idea of partition, religious partition ...incredible, incompetent, short sighted, and would cause the death of millions ... This just two years after they had signally failed to win the war, WWII. In that war they just happened to be on the right side, the Russians side.

Such a plan can only have been arrived at by fools. I don't know the detail, wherein the devil resided s, but basically India would was be split in three. India itself in the centre, West Pakistan to the west, and three two thousand kilometres to the east, the rest of Pakistan, East Pakistan.

This caused the cross transitioning of millions and millions of people, as Muslims were forcibly relocated to east and west Pakistan, and vice versa. Where once there had been peace, dominated by a common hatred of the foreign invader, now there was internecine war and ethnic cleansing on a huge scale. Millions were killed. East and West Pakistan would end up in war against each other, with India in between. East Pakistan would then dissolve into civil war and emerge as poverty stricken Bangladesh.

Kids, when I wrote the story, Calcutta, 1977 ... These conflicts were still in the final volatile resolution stage, 30 years on. All this was started by the British, just two years after the war. Lord Mountbatten oversaw on behalf of the crown. When the IRA blew him into mincemeat years later because he had been interfering in Ireland as well, the western world cried, mourned ... Not me, not once, not ever !

And now I was in Pakistan, formerly West Pakistan .... Despite being a democracy not one election had been held since partitioning. Every change of government had been a bloody coup for the 30 years of its existence. One would occur while I was there, and I would be momentarily held, searched, confined to my hotel.

The Prime Minister, Bhutto was overthrown and would be hung. Father to the Daughter who would also rise to rule Pakistan 30 years later, before she was assassinated, with about three other pretenders killed in between. This country has a nuclear arsenal.

All Gandhi's plans for a peaceful transition, a non violent transition had failed. He had beaten the British at their own game, without a gun, no weapon, not a single shot ... He had thwarted them, cut off their cheap source of energy. And they had hated him. That's why I say, little short of planned treachery, a vicious last minute blow as they left. This is why Pakistan is still so volatile, Afghanistan, its poorer western neighbor in tatters. Why Nick, my nephew is there, why James, Coe's stepson is there, completing their tours-of-duty.

They cannot give the reasons,
They only sing the tunes:
the sadness of the seasons
the madness of the moons.

Enough of history lessons, and this is mere outline anyway.
For the rest .... click here.

And you post that the 'stony rock' is
about right and wrong.
... The only people that 'widely misunderstand' Britain are british ....

This is not personal, the 'you' in this 'story' is not you Crumpy ... just your forebears. Your not responsible for the 'history' you were taught.

Originally Posted by Crump View Post
I hope and believe that the Argentines have learned that they will never prosper from aggression;
Classic .... just phuckin classic ......

cool bananas ... greg
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Last edited by Mutawintji; 01-07-2013 at 12:45 PM..
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  #64  
Old 01-07-2013, 01:21 PM
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yeah, I suppose the British empire was pretty shitty; it's not like it brought trade to and from the far corners of the world, formed alliances that benefit the global economy even today, stopped the formidable German army... Twice (where would we have been without allied help during the wars?), created civilised Australia and the USA (albeit with a few hiccups along the way), lead the entire world to the abolishment slavery, spread English as a world language, set up parliamentary democracy all over the world, built railways, roads, a world-wide postal system, brought medical expertise and medicine to remedy otherwise incurable diseases (general sanitation, too) and spread the word about women's rights, is it?
But they lined their own pockets while they did it, the bastards!
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  #65  
Old 01-07-2013, 01:28 PM
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Interesting post, most people know the terrible consequences of huge amounts of borders carved up arbitrarily in the 19th and 20th centuries. But I'd like to point out - although it clearly wasn't handled well - the idea of a sovereign Muslim state separate from India was not a British one.

We cerainly didn't want them to start killing each other.
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  #66  
Old 01-07-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Crump, slightly off-topic, but what is meant by 'holding back the tide' in Palestine?

My understanding is we favoured the Zionist state; 'Balfour declaration', suppressed arab dissent in the 30's (we started the bulldozing tactic I believe when they started to grasp what was up). And then handed over to the UN to decree the partition.

Just not sure I can link the phrase. Or do you mean something else?
In 1939 the British issued a policy document called the Macdonald White Paper, which limited the numbers of Jewish immigrants accepted in Palestine. The Zionists saw this as an abrogation of the Balfour declaration. Unfortunately the British had also made promises to the Arabs and it was becoming increasingly obvious that they had succeeded in creating conflicting obligations to the two groups; the White Paper was an attempt to preserve a delicate Jewish/Arab balance. Throughout the early 40's the British maintained a strict limit on immigration and it can, and has, been argued that this compounded the effect of the Holocaust by limiting the escape possibilities open to European Jews. After the war a mass of Jews attempted to enter Palestine by land and sea routes but the British continued to implement the immigration policy and turned away tens of thousands of refugees. This led to open conflict with Zionist groups and brought criticism from many sources including the US Government who wanted Britain to allow open immigration. The British continued their King Canute act until late 1946 when pressure from Woodrow Wilson and the Zionist Irgun organisation (who had famously blown up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem that July) led to the relaxation of immigration and the decision to surrender the mandate.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mutawintji View Post

Classic .... just phuckin classic ......
You can mock all you want Mutawintji, it doesn't alter the justice of Britain's policy towards the Falklands.

And yes, Britain's just and correct position appears to be completely misunderstood if the views expressed here are any guide.

Anyone remember the Belgrano? Many thought that it was sunk without reason, right at the end of the Falkland war when the outcome was already certain; but that was not so. HMS Conqueror was late on the scene for that conflict, but the Belgrano was a warning of what would happen if the Argentines ever tried the same trick again. It is an open secret that, to this day, a British nuclear attack submarine regularly patrols the South Atlantic. The Argentines don't know where it is and have no counter to it, and that's why they haven't had another go. Chilling - the lengths the British will go to, to see justice done.
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  #68  
Old 01-07-2013, 04:56 PM
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No offence mate ... just a different version of history.

You write good posts ...

Greg
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  #69  
Old 01-08-2013, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Crump View Post
In 1939 the British issued a policy document called the Macdonald White Paper, which limited the numbers of Jewish immigrants accepted in Palestine. The Zionists saw this as an abrogation of the Balfour declaration. Unfortunately the British had also made promises to the Arabs and it was becoming increasingly obvious that they had succeeded in creating conflicting obligations to the two groups; the White Paper was an attempt to preserve a delicate Jewish/Arab balance. Throughout the early 40's the British maintained a strict limit on immigration and it can, and has, been argued that this compounded the effect of the Holocaust by limiting the escape possibilities open to European Jews. After the war a mass of Jews attempted to enter Palestine by land and sea routes but the British continued to implement the immigration policy and turned away tens of thousands of refugees. This led to open conflict with Zionist groups and brought criticism from many sources including the US Government who wanted Britain to allow open immigration. The British continued their King Canute act until late 1946 when pressure from Woodrow Wilson and the Zionist Irgun organisation (who had famously blown up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem that July) led to the relaxation of immigration and the decision to surrender the mandate.
Interesting.

Seems like a tricky one to manage. Though I suppose a more expedient immigration in the wake of the holocaust should have been priority... the consequences of the scale of Jews entering Palestine throughout the 30's and 40's are still unsolved. Whatever the British did, it seems someone was bound to lose.
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