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Argentina reignites Falklands row.

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  #31  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:49 AM
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I started a discussion Gaines and we had some decent posts as a result, including a great one from yourself. That was exactly what was intended. I don't accept that I set out to bash America at all.

Aside from that, I have no issue with you, you're cool.

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  #32  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
And for the record I didn't say that your food was crap, your weather sucked, your Royals were a succession of inbred morons, you did unspeakable things to sheep and probably small defenseless mammals, you slaughter the Queens english, your music is a ripoff of all things Amercian, soccer is for pussies, you have bad teeth, your women need to shave their legs and armpits, you idiots drive on the wrong side of the road and Camilla is a godsend to that bunch of twits.

I said none of those things. And I never said that Ireland has made you their bitch!
Really...? you're in it so deep now they'll be bagging you up to spread on the roses in Kew Gardens.
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  #33  
Old 01-05-2013, 08:58 AM
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I didn't say you set out to bash us..it's the typical by product of any and all discussions involving opinions of the US. We understand that and being the freedom mongers we are we support the right of free speech and press..etc, wholeheartedly. In fact I encourage foreigners to express their opinions of the US whenever they can. It gives our homeland security something to track. They are an industrious lot.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Redlorry View Post
Really...? you're in it so deep now they'll be bagging you up to spread on the roses in Kew Gardens.

Oh really, that's laughable. Who you sending? I will pummel them with a cricket bat! I'll be using them to fertilize my weed. Smoke that...Princess!
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  #35  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:14 PM
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America bashing is a worldwide sport. It's almost so reflexive people aren't even aware of doing much of the time.
The idea of Brits getting huffy and yelping about "Brit-bashing" because they're being critizised for doing something really dumb is just plain silly.

If you think it's idiotic for the US to be fighting in the Mid-East or supporting Israel, of wasting billions on "drug wars" in Latin America are you "anti-American", or just anti-stupidity?
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  #36  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:52 PM
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No one wants a war. It was the insults and name calling that annoyed me
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  #37  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:11 PM
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You're totally right. Nobody should yap about Brit-bashing. They might be entitled to yap about ignorance and bullshit though.

You keep pushing the line that Britain gave up her empire through lack of will, or laziness. It's just guess work and nonsense. Perhaps it's because America has never faced near destruction.

The empire simply was not viable after WW2 for obvious reasons. Also whatever you think about how great the empire was, it was steeped in human rights abuses of all kinds. At some point the right to self determination - which was almost unanimously wanted - had to be honoured.

There's not many populations who wish to be colonised by Britain again no matter what they've been through since, and that says a lot.
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  #38  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:15 PM
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At three points in my countrys history we were at the brink of collapse. Firstly was our Civil War and the second came around sixty years later with our Great Depression. I left out the Revolutionary War due to the fact we were not technically a country at the time. Just a ragtag bunch of colonists with a dream and subservient women. Miss that.

Strangely enough it was during the sixties, at the height of the Vietnam War, our internal unrest and friction between the camps that supported the war and those that didn't, combined with the pressures of the civil rights movement, we nearly imploded.

We can all rail against stupidity, even our own. And I do hope my Brit friends know that my wise ass remarks were in jest. That is, all of them except the one about a certain someone with her panties in a wad and she knows who she is. Hah.

Hey, I just thought of something. Ever notice how very little is ever said about our Canadian neighbors to the north? Wha's up with that? WTF do they do up there in all that snow besides play hellatious hockey? They're too quiet. Like kids in the house you suddenly don't hear a peep out of...that's when you start to worry and know it's time to check on them. And there it is. You go to their room and cat fur is everywhere and the old mans razor is on the floor. The cat is sitting there in a doll dress wearing a makeshift pair; (two pairs) of shoes cut from a tee shirt and scotch taped to his bare legs. Pitiful. Something foul smelling is oozing from the easy bake oven and the three foot tall lego robot now has a lego penis with two Christmas ornaments for accoutrements.

Would someone please check on the Canucks?
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  #39  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:58 PM
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Well folks I really don't know where all this Brit bashing, Yank bashing and various abuse came from.

If it has something to do with you guys provoking one another on some other thread, then please try to keep your angry responses on that thread. Otherwise it looks as if you've all just 'lost it' for no particular reason. Some kind of mass psychosis perhaps?
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:03 PM
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Point taken Gaines, though I don't think those issues you mention really compare to the threat Britain faced from the Nazis.

Anyway yeah I knew you were kidding and I appreciate your trying to make light of the thread. I seem to be getting way too serious in my old age, it sucks.
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  #41  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
You're totally right. Nobody should yap about Brit-bashing. They might be entitled to yap about ignorance and bullshit though.

You keep pushing the line that Britain gave up her empire through lack of will, or laziness. It's just guess work and nonsense. Perhaps it's because America has never faced near destruction.

The empire simply was not viable after WW2 for obvious reasons. Also whatever you think about how great the empire was, it was steeped in human rights abuses of all kinds. At some point the right to self determination - which was almost unanimously wanted - had to be honoured.

There's not many populations who wish to be colonised by Britain again no matter what they've been through since, and that says a lot.
John, I'm not sure the Empire was viable after WWI. But the British Empire didn't 'go away', it morphed into an international mutual appreciation society called the Commonwealth. And now they're queueing up to join.
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  #42  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:59 PM
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The idea that letting the Empire go to see came from the World Wars isn't very historically accurate. All you have to do is look up the dates.

The idea that it was draining money to maintain the Empire indicates some REALLY bad management. Empires are supposed to PAY, not COST. That's why people have them.

The fact that people in Belize or wherever wouldn't vote to come back into the Empire (and I'd lose to see what happened if they actually voted it) has nothing to do with whether or not they're doing a better job of running themselves than the Brits did.

Is India better off now than during the Raj? I seriously doubt it. Are they a better world citizen? Not what you'd call.

Before they Raj they burned women alive at funerals. These days they just fuck them to death with an iron bar or toss acid in their faces. These weren't tolerated under the Raj.

Emperial control is not always a bad thing. Taiwan was probably better off under Japan. (And Japan were shitty imperialists, worse than the Spanish or Portugese)

Not to far a jump from that to whether Alabama or Texas were better off independent or Confedearte than under the US federal rule... which was imposed by force of arms.

I don't thing there's that much bashing or name-calling here. Somebody brought it up, but that doesn't mean it's for real Maybe Brits just aren't as used to having things questioned as Americans are. We get used to it.


To return to the point of the thread, if eveybody is all secure now, is there anybody here who thinks it's a brilliant idea for Britain to spend money, much less blood, to keep a couple thousand farmers in an island far, far away?
(God knows why Argentina wants it, for that matter)
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  #43  
Old 01-05-2013, 06:49 PM
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Other than the islands proximity to South America and its previous ownership why would they want the place? It's a small innocuouos island not much good for anything beyond farming or maybe a vacation spot. Perhaps a good spot for another Disneyworld to spur the local economy. Just seems like much ado about nothing.
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  #44  
Old 01-05-2013, 07:53 PM
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It so often is. You look at the shit people kill each other over.
VietNam? Who would GIVE a shit?
Kuwait???? WHY bother??
The fucking Balkans? Matsu and Quemoy?
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  #45  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:14 AM
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Proximity is the Argentines main reason for desiring to possess the Falklands, even if it's not their principal argument for claiming them. If the Falklands were off the coast of Africa there would be no dispute, at least not with Argentina. I believe the Argentines see the Falklands as an insult to their territorial integrity. The fact of those islands being possessed by another power is a provocation to them and is justification enough, in their minds, for extreme measures to gain sovereignty over them. What they want is the 'full set'; they want Argentina to look 'a piece' with no ragged edges or missing bits. In a word their claim to the Falklands is driven by 'avarice', nothing else.
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  #46  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:05 AM
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So, their desire for control of fairly worthless areas right off their coast, which they owned until taken away by force of arms, and now in the control of a power that has dumped most of their other possessions is "avarice".

But the British desire to control tiny islands practically at the antripodes of their own country is something noble and fine.

Interesting.
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  #47  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:12 AM
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@Crump, yeah sure, I understand the benefits of a common bond between nations who are used to trading with each other, but that's different. What I'm getting at is the importance of self determination for so many nations.

@ Lin I think you should do more than look up dates but read historical accounts. You'll be hard pressed to find one which doesn't cite the two world wars as a major factor in the decline of Empire. There's a lot of good things to say about the empire. But, it's also associated with exploitation, slavery, suppression, war, descrimination etc.

Putting it simply; imagine if you're running a hegemonic company, and you've just been hit with a crash. You're in debt and there's a bunch of sites you can't afford to keep open - not only that but many people in the company think keeping the stores is immoral, and the stores themselves would like to be independently owned, what do you do?

It's too simple to say we handed over colonies cause we couldn't be bothered with them anymore. If there was any bad management, that was certainly not the only factor here. The factors left out are the two world wars which weakened Britain's power and economy. The fact that so many nations were crying out for independence. Insurrections and uprisings were amok. Running 25% of the world is no small task and yes, it had become a burden. Many Britons even before the second world war - including politicians and intellectuals had become morally opposed to it, and saw that it was no longer a benefit.

As far as I'm concerned it was an inevitability that most if not all ex-colonies gained independence.
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  #48  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:21 AM
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I get the impression that LIn doesn't like Brits or Britain very much.

I also get the impression that GAINES has some sort of death wish, messin' wiv da Mods.....how very brave (niave).
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  #49  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Lin View Post
which they owned until taken away by force of arms
A bit of Lin revisionism here.

But the British desire to control tiny islands practically at the antripodes of their own country is something noble and fine.
Interesting.
Britain has no desire to control the islands, it just does control the islands.

If they were uninhabited we would gladly hand them over to Argentina, or anyone else.

If they were inhabited by gauchos we would be saying 'Now come on chaps, you're really Argentinian, aren't you?'

The fact that the islands are at the antipodes is an inconvenience.
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  #50  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:46 AM
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Shamefully, I don't even know why they (Argentina) want them. Is it just a matter of "it's ours, so bugger off", or is there some advantage to be gained?
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:45 AM
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I say we pop some corn, set up the lawn chairs and you all have a little war. Probably not that many people will die and it could be fairly entertaining.
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  #52  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:26 AM
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What "revisionism". If you want to disagree with somebody, give your own version. Any jerkoff can just say "you're wrong" with nothing to back it up.

Summerson, don't be stupider than necessary. There's nothing here, or in anything on this forum to indicate I "don't like" Brits or Britain.
I think they'[re stupid to fight for the Falklands. I think Argentina is, too.
Your type of lame generalization is the same sort of thing that makes pinheads call people anti-Semites if they think Israel shouldn't occupy other people's land and bomb their children.

Constantine, I don't "just look up dates". I recommend that other do so to clear their heads. I rely on my general awareness of history from reading. The fact that a bunch of people are yammering about how the Empire was lost because of the blitz or whatever could, if you would think about it, be an excuse or apologia.
And the idea that such writing would come in conflict with dates is kind of quaint. Sort of like oh, you know, we read all about this creation science, don't get hung up on facts.
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  #53  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:23 AM
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Well I'd be interested to know which history books you read which say it was nothing to do with the wars but down to laziness/stupidness. I assumed you came up with that one by yourself.

It's not the blitz is it. It's the imprint left on a nation which narrowly escaped destruction, which emerged tired, sure, but much more importantly economically impotant and generally disillusioned.

You could say tiredness played a part, but more tired of fighting. There was a shift in consciousness by most accounts. Perhaps fed up of stamping our feet onto dark faces?

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. One of the best accounts I've read on this is simply entitled 'Empire' (you might have heard of it, even read it?) by Niall Ferguson. For me he's not just one of the best historians we have, but one of the best minds. The reasons I mention are alluded to in that book (recommend you check it out if you get the time). But then essentially, pretty much everything I've read or watched does. Don't get me wrong I don't mean that Britain hasn't done anything stupid, I just don't believe that is the overriding factor in the Empire's decline.
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  #54  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lin View Post
What "revisionism". If you want to disagree with somebody, give your own version. Any jerkoff can just say "you're wrong" with nothing to back it up.
Yes, but not every 'jerkoff' is as abusive as you are. I''m sure your Mother didn't teach you all that foul language?

You didn't actually give a version, you just made an assertion; which anyone could do. It happens that the same revisionist assertion has been made time without number and it relates to the Louis Vernet expedition.

Louis Vernet was a Franco-German adventurer who in 1829 proposed to found a settlement on the, then uninhabited, Falkland Islands. Being aware of the long standing British claim to sovereignty of the islands, Vernet took care to obtain the correct permissions through the British Consul in Buenos Aires. However, once established on the Falklands Vernet declared himself Governor of the islands on behalf of the Republic of Buenos Aires. The British protested to the government in Buenos Aires without success and finally sent a naval flotilla to reclaim the islands, which arrived in 1833: communication being much slower in those days. British rule was re-established without a fight and the forty or so colonists were given leave to remain although most chose to leave. After that the islands were settled by mainly British citizens.

So they didn't own it, and it wasn't taken away by force of arms.

Neither subterfuge or aggression will ever win the Argentines the Falklands. But if Cristina de Kirchner wants the islands the way is open for her. All she has to do is befriend the Falklanders and gain their trust; Britain would never stand in the way of the islands becoming Argentinian if the people accepted that.
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  #55  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Lin View Post
are you "anti-American", or just anti-stupidity?
ummmmmmm ... errrrr ... arrr .... where is the ambiguity.

Originally Posted by Front&Centre View Post
Is it just a matter of "it's ours, so bugger off", or is there some advantage to be gained?
Originally Posted by Crump View Post
Britain would never stand in the way of the islands becoming Argentinian if the people accepted that.
Well spoken Saunders of the River ... So nice that you show firmness but fairness in the treatment of your children.

Unfortunately the great Edwardian Imperialist days of a miniscule bureaucracy administering large areas of other peoples lands is over. In order to go to war (again) over the Falklands you need money, a big budget. So fairly or unfairly, Argentina is going to end up with the Falklands, one way or another, by the sword or by the pen.

I suggest you read your own Author, Edgar Wallace. The story called 'Dancing Stones'


The rainy season came round and the springtime, before Sanders again stood in the presence of the Great King. All around him was desolation and death. The plain was strewn with the bodies of men, and the big city was a smoking ruin. To the left, three regiments of Houssas were encamped; to the right, two battalions of African Rifles sat at "chop," and the snappy notes of their bugles came sharply through the still air.


"I am an old man," mumbled the king; but the girl who crouched at his side said nothing. Only her eyes never left the brick-red face of Sanders.

"Old you are," he said, "yet not too old to die."

"I am a great king," whined the other, "and it is not proper that a great king should hang."

"Yet if you live," said Sanders, "many other great kings will say, 'We may commit these abominations, and because of our greatness we shall live.'"

"And what of me, lord?" said the girl in a low voice.

"You!" Sanders looked at her. "Ho, hi," he said, as though he had just remembered her. "You are the dancing girl? Now we shall do nothing with you, Daihili--because you are nothing."

He saw her shrink as one under a lash.

After the execution, the Colonel of the Houssas and Sanders were talking together.

"What I can't understand," said the Colonel, "is why we suddenly decided upon this expedition. It has been necessary for years--but why this sudden activity?"

Sanders grinned mysteriously."A wonderful people, the English," he said airily. "Old Man Limbili steals British subjects, and I report it. 'Very sad,' says England. He wipes out a nation. 'Deplorable!' says England. He makes me dance on the original good-intention stones of Hades. 'Treat it as a joke,' says England; but when I point out that these stones assay one ounce ten penny-weights of refined gold, and that we've happed upon the richest reef in Central Africa, there's an army here in six months!"

I personally think that Sanders may have been a little unjust in his point of view. After all, wars cost money, and wars of vengeance are notoriously unprofitable.


cool bananas ... greg
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  #56  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Don't get me wrong I don't mean that Britain hasn't done anything stupid, I just don't believe that is the overriding factor in the Empire's decline.

There's a good argument that many of the things we've done since WWII have been stupid. Trying to hold back the tide in Palestine, failing to join the Coal and Steel Community at the outset, embarking on the Suez adventure, clandestinely supporting South Africa, not dealing with Smith regime more firmly, stopping school milk, electing Margaret Thatcher, it goes on and on.

Only Will Hay could 'out Sanders' Sanders of the River.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:22 PM
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All Empires fail at some point. The British one was no different. The people on the Falklands have every opportunity to NOT be British if they want. They do though because they know they are looked after. i don't suppose we as a nation actually get that much from owning the Falklands but so what. Thay probably makes it a more decent thing to do to keep them British. It's a raerity that politicians do something for little gain...but that's just the opinion of a stupider pinhead.

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Old 01-07-2013, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TheSummerSon View Post

I also get the impression that GAINES has some sort of death wish, messin' wiv da Mods.....how very brave (niave).

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the mods and the job they do on this forum. Imagine sheep herding a bunch of overgrown, juvenile delinquents such as yourselves. Yes, I might tweak a mod or two from time to time but at least one week out of every month I quietly tiptoe away and hide in the shadows. It's safer.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:06 AM
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As far as I'm aware Argentina hasn't really got the cash to wage war either. Their recent history is a riches to rags story.

Let's just hope we can work this out without any bloodshed.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
As far as I'm aware Argentina hasn't really got the cash to wage war either. Their recent history is a riches to rags story.

Let's just hope we can work this out without any bloodshed.
I hope and believe that the Argentines have learned that they will never prosper from aggression; at least not where Britain is concerned. If the British Navy was reduced to one rowing boat we would still send it out to teach the Argies just that. They'll get what they want, but only if they they take the time and trouble to do it properly; otherwise they'll never get it.

And Mutawintji please note, this is not about 'vengeance', it's about right and wrong. I have to say that until seeing some views on this forum I hadn't known that Britain was so widely misunderstood.
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