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  #91  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Funny.

Mike C. dropped in to provide the Last Rites.

This place can be restored to former glory easily and quickly. Things aren't as bleak as they appear to be. The core is rock solid--Mohican, Pickle, Brianpatrick, Flying, Max Crash, Nick Pierce, as well as a few other crafty regulars. It would be nice to have a few more female voices (preferably Playboy Bunnies) around. But the potential for smart rebuilding is there. Patience & rolling up sleeves are a major requirement. That said, the place isn't lacking brains. The "smarts" are still here.


Derelict warehouses. Well believe it or not, I've seen quite a few transformed into swank after-hour night clubs. Where there's a will, there's a way.


It would require a highly motivated and inclusive individual or group of individuals to reinvent the place. And, it would be harder than the first building because of the competition from Facebook groups and other social media. Those things didn't exist when this place came up.

I don't see such a person on the horizon. I also don't see the owners or the admins. in any way willing or intending to help.

I come here because it's one of the only writers forums available on Tapatalk. There's writers net, but that place is slower than this place.

As people dwindle away, I am less interested.

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  #92  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:30 PM
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Haven't really thought it through, but I'm guessing you could turn a negative into a positive and use FB and other social media to promote the forum -- but it would take a hell of a lot more time and effort than just creating a page...
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  #93  
Old 01-23-2017, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Haven't really thought it through, but I'm guessing you could turn a negative into a positive and use FB and other social media to promote the forum -- but it would take a hell of a lot more time and effort than just creating a page...


Yeah, somebody could do that, but most of what I've seen on Facebook closed groups is a lot more of what we have here. Tons of people who can't write and are only interested in asking useless questions and slapping people when they don't get the answer they wanted with zingers.

Or, people posting 'bait' to create controversy because they don't seem to have anything else to do, or they've got 'writers block.'

Maybe there are a bunch of good writers keeping their heads down and waiting for something good to come along. But you'd have to have something for them here to come to.
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  #94  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:27 PM
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Years ago, I frequented a grammar site called "The Grammar Lady." It was a popular site with many highly educated grammar experts. Well, when she passed on, a close friend of hers decided to keep the place functioning under the new name "The Grammar Board." A few years under his supervision, he finally decided to cut it loose. Strange that he had shut it down though because it still had many of its members. Maybe the owners of this place feel that it is "time." If they do feel that way, it would be much better to post a notice of their intentions and just shut the door, instead of letting the site linger.
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  #95  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Yeah, somebody could do that, but most of what I've seen on Facebook closed groups is a lot more of what we have here. Tons of people who can't write and are only interested in asking useless questions and slapping people when they don't get the answer they wanted with zingers.

Or, people posting 'bait' to create controversy because they don't seem to have anything else to do, or they've got 'writers block.'

Maybe there are a bunch of good writers keeping their heads down and waiting for something good to come along. But you'd have to have something for them here to come to.
I think you're talking about a Facebook presence as a writer's site in and of itself.

I'm talking about something that promotes and directs people to a writing site.

Otherwise, let's not kid ourselves. Good writers who have the required confidence to have any kind of success appealing to and reaching a wider audience don't need writing forums -- as anything other than a temporary sanity check.

Writing forums are mostly for hobby writers -- people who have a shared interest in writing. And that's not really a bad thing.

The debate forums are just beside the point bullshit. I've know exactly TWO people on writing forums who have had any kind of success writing fiction -- and neither of them could have been fucked with participating on the debate forums.

Bottom line -- I think writing forums are of negligible value. If you enjoy hanging out fine. If it's about achieving some kind of success as a writer, you're probably wasting your time.
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  #96  
Old 01-23-2017, 04:52 PM
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Yeah, I understood. I have used Facebook writers groups to attract people for my other endeavor. It does work, but if you invite them you need some reason for them to stay. Not much reason here now.

When I said good writers I meant good hobby writers or people still learning how to craft a good story, but with potential. As you said, no published or productive professional would have need of a writers forum.

There are a lot of people with a lot of things to teach if there is some other reason for them to stick around.
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  #97  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
As you said, no published or productive professional would have need of a writers forum.
Well, I didn't say that. I said:

"Good writers who have the required confidence to have any kind of success appealing to and reaching a wider audience don't need writing forums -- as anything other than a temporary sanity check."
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  #98  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:47 PM
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Fair enough, but some of those confident writers once came here for other reasons. People like Mike C., Candra, JustcallmeEd, And a bunch of others who's real names I know, but can't place their screen names. There were the SPaG ninjas including LeWriter and crew that didn't stay around once the circus left town.
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  #99  
Old 01-24-2017, 12:00 AM
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Every experience informs your writing. Interactions with others help you to express yourself better, or they should if you give a toss.

No one can tell you how to write, however successful they are themselves. You have to develop your own unique voice, and there are no shortcuts. If you join a forum in the hope that Stephen King or Cormac McCarthy will come along and sprinkle some stardust on your dud manuscript prepare to be disappointed. Try Twitter. There are plenty of overrated hacks on there basking in the adulation of their witless fans.

I honestly can't understand all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. The forum is what it is. Take from it what you can, or piss off and do something else.
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  #100  
Old 01-24-2017, 12:00 AM
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Every experience informs your writing. Interactions with others help you to express yourself better, or they should if you give a toss.

No one can tell you how to write, however 'successful' they are themselves. You have to develop your own unique voice, and there are no shortcuts. If you join a forum in the hope that Stephen King or Cormac McCarthy will come along and sprinkle some stardust on your dud manuscript prepare to be disappointed. Try Twitter. There are plenty of overrated hacks on there basking in the adulation of their witless fans.

I honestly can't understand all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. The forum is what it is. Take from it what you can, or piss off and do something else.
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  #101  
Old 01-24-2017, 02:34 AM
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[QUOTE=flyingtart

Try Twitter. There are plenty of overrated hacks on there basking in the adulation of their witless fans.

[/QUOTE]


Easy there, Donald.
I am almost certain this does not refer to you.
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  #102  
Old 01-24-2017, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Fair enough, but some of those confident writers once came here for other reasons. People like Mike C., Candra, JustcallmeEd, And a bunch of others who's real names I know, but can't place their screen names. There were the SPaG ninjas including LeWriter and crew that didn't stay around once the circus left town.
Your time line is off. The "other than staff" SPAG Ninjas were after the 2014 closing of the Intellectual Table.

Did it's closing cause some to leave? yes.

Did some have a temper tantrum and were asked to leave? Yes

But people left before and after the 2014 closure of the Intellectual Table

Why did others leave? Because of poor behavior of some toward others.

If this is revamped, or people expect this to be recreated then there are some people who need to treat others in a more decent and respectful manner.

If a group gangs up on and drives a "marginal" writer off the site, it often causes others to leave, because even if they won't say it to the whole group, they will let staff know before they drift off in the sunset.
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  #103  
Old 01-24-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Every experience informs your writing. Interactions with others help you to express yourself better, or they should if you give a toss.

No one can tell you how to write, however 'successful' they are themselves. You have to develop your own unique voice, and there are no shortcuts. If you join a forum in the hope that Stephen King or Cormac McCarthy will come along and sprinkle some stardust on your dud manuscript prepare to be disappointed. Try Twitter. There are plenty of overrated hacks on there basking in the adulation of their witless fans.

I honestly can't understand all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. The forum is what it is. Take from it what you can, or piss off and do something else.
I seriously doubt that bickering in the debate section of writing site is going to do much to inform your writing -- unless you have no other life.

Otherwise, who's doing the wailing and teeth gnashing?

I see a few people taking a look at why the site is failing and some who recognize what it might take to make it vital again. What's the problem?

The only thing I see that is somewhat counterproductive is rehashing past issues -- although maybe there's an opportunity to avoid past mistakes.

As far as sprinkling fairy dust goes -- I've been a member of a few writing sites over the years, and I've seen that the majority of people have reasonable expectations -- and not many people who think the site is going to magically turn them into Cormac McCarthy.

When I first posted work in an active workshop that included a few talented and published writers, I learned a few things that might have taken me longer to work out on my own. There were also a few deep and thoughtful comments that really made me think about what I was trying to do.

So I initially posted for that sanity check and for some confirmation, but I stuck around because I had fun reading the work and commenting on the stories. And people seemed to appreciate what I had to say.

That's pretty much what it's about. To make that happen, you need a constant influx of new members, a few stalwarts and reasonable and consistent moderation.

All of that is within the realm of possibility here, but not very likely with the current owners. I think updating the look and feel of the site and making it more inviting is essential.

And obviously, anyone who doesn't like the current state of things will "piss off" on their own volition. Kind of a no-brainer.

But seriously, thanks so very much for your input.

Last edited by Myers; 01-24-2017 at 07:24 AM..
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  #104  
Old 01-24-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cityboy
Mike C. dropped in to provide the Last Rites.
If that's how you choose to misread it...

Originally Posted by cityboy
This place can be restored to former glory easily and quickly. Things aren't as bleak as they appear to be.
Anyone can spout dumb shit. Let's take back control! Make America great again!

I don't see you offering any solutions or suggestions. How exactly do you propose the place be restored, and how quickly and easily are you planning on doing it?

Or are you using the post-truth, alternative fact version of reality where you just keep repeating bullshit as many times as it takes to make people believe it?

I'm not taking a personal pot-shot at you, but if you're going to say something stupid like "This place can be restored to former glory easily and quickly", then back it up with some knowhow or just don't say it.
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  #105  
Old 01-24-2017, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers
Bottom line -- I think writing forums are of negligible value. If you enjoy hanging out fine. If it's about achieving some kind of success as a writer, you're probably wasting your time.
Can I agree and disagree simultaneously?

A lot of people like hanging out with people with the same grubby little perversion that can only be practiced in solitude. It's nice to have people to talk to who understand. But for many, that's the only reason to be here.

Others gain tremendously. Do a search (if you can be bothered, no pressure) for the hothouse project. My successful forum, which again only ran for a year and was strictly limited to 5 members.

There was no chit-chat, no IT, just talent creamed from WB. There was a requirement to post regularly, and a requirement to critique everything. Everything. And once a story was polished, the requirement was that it got sent out for publication.

Every single member had several works published. Red was a member and all she needed was a push and some confidence, and she was exceptionally successful. Those 5 people had, between them, in the course of a year, dozens of stories accepted for publication.

Part of the reason Red left was because she started taking writing more seriously, and last I heard she was working on a novel. Another of the members is on her second or third published novel.

These places can work, if you want them to.
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  #106  
Old 01-24-2017, 07:50 AM
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Correction to above - it was 7 members, including me.

We got 15 acceptances in the first MONTH. 32 by the time I stopped counting, including at least one paid at Pro rates.

This was all achieved by sharing the biggest secret in writing which I learned the hard way.
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  #107  
Old 01-24-2017, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
Can I agree and disagree simultaneously?

A lot of people like hanging out with people with the same grubby little perversion that can only be practiced in solitude. It's nice to have people to talk to who understand. But for many, that's the only reason to be here.

Others gain tremendously. Do a search (if you can be bothered, no pressure) for the hothouse project. My successful forum, which again only ran for a year and was strictly limited to 5 members.

There was no chit-chat, no IT, just talent creamed from WB. There was a requirement to post regularly, and a requirement to critique everything. Everything. And once a story was polished, the requirement was that it got sent out for publication.

Every single member had several works published. Red was a member and all she needed was a push and some confidence, and she was exceptionally successful. Those 5 people had, between them, in the course of a year, dozens of stories accepted for publication.

Part of the reason Red left was because she started taking writing more seriously, and last I heard she was working on a novel. Another of the members is on her second or third published novel.

These places can work, if you want them to.
I'll take your word for it regarding the hothouse thing.

And you probably missed my subsequent posts where I modified this position somewhat.

I think a forum like you describe could be of some value as far as hastening and facilitating things, but I think a determined and talented writer is going to have some success regardless -- recognizing that some luck is involved too.

I was a member of a similar, invitation only forum -- and it died on the vine. I think that's because there just wasn't the constant influx of new members required to keep a site going. And at that point, I'd pretty much gotten all I was going to get from a forum. It was simply time to start subbing -- or not.

I'm really talking about this particular format, shared by the other big writing sites. It's a grab bag -- and whether or not it works often depends on the particular mix of people at any given point.

I was on one of those sites for a while, and this ONE guy, a very astute, and accomplished writer, consistently made me think about my writing like no one else. His words often ring in my ears when I'm writing. There were a few others who also made a lasting impact.

So yes, it can work. And sometimes it's just nice to hang out with like-minded people. And maybe that's reason enough.

Last edited by Myers; 01-24-2017 at 09:00 AM..
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  #108  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:29 AM
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Mohican, here's a suggestion (I don't know whether it's possible but if it is, it is worth giving a try). Once the board is properly functioning, PM all members to inform them of a drawing and a chance to win $50 by submitting a story in Non-fiction, Fiction, Free Writing. And by submitting a poem in Poetry. Inform the members their work must be submitted from February 1, to February 28, (fictional dates) and that the only requirement is submitting an entry and not its contents. Tell them winners will be selected in the way of an old fashioned raffle, and that there will be two winners in each category. Therefore, for a mere four-hundred dollars the site might be able to pull in lost members and hopefully get them to return. It's worth a try if it can be pulled off.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Every experience informs your writing. Interactions with others help you to express yourself better, or they should if you give a toss.

No one can tell you how to write, however 'successful' they are themselves. You have to develop your own unique voice, and there are no shortcuts. If you join a forum in the hope that Stephen King or Cormac McCarthy will come along and sprinkle some stardust on your dud manuscript prepare to be disappointed. Try Twitter. There are plenty of overrated hacks on there basking in the adulation of their witless fans.

I honestly can't understand all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. The forum is what it is. Take from it what you can, or piss off and do something else.
That's an excellent message, Flying. And that's exactly what I meant by a woman's view point is lacking here. The 'Beat needs more like you. If I were still in the business, I would have sent you a free handbag for such a marvelous piece of information.
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  #110  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Your time line is off. The "other than staff" SPAG Ninjas were after the 2014 closing of the Intellectual Table.

Did it's closing cause some to leave? yes.

Did some have a temper tantrum and were asked to leave? Yes

But people left before and after the 2014 closure of the Intellectual Table

Why did others leave? Because of poor behavior of some toward others.

If this is revamped, or people expect this to be recreated then there are some people who need to treat others in a more decent and respectful manner.

If a group gangs up on and drives a "marginal" writer off the site, it often causes others to leave, because even if they won't say it to the whole group, they will let staff know before they drift off in the sunset.


I think you're wrong in believing that you have a forum and set up rules and people need to follow them and be respectful or orderly. That won't ever happen. There will always be trolls or assholes or people who, for whatever reason, push the limits or outright smash them. These people are interesting and unpredictable. They draw traffic and increase post counts.

The hard part is they require moderation, not the making of stricter and stricter rules to keep such things from ever happening again.

Yeah, some people with thin skin (made worse if their writing is poor, without even potential) will get their feelings hurt and leave. Honestly, they probably weren't here for a very honest reason anyway. And I mean honest with others, but mostly with themselves. If new people are logging in all the time then so what? The traffic is what's important to a good forum.

Will some people be offended and leave? Yes. Will some members notice some poor kid getting picked on, one who obviously can't defend themselves, and intervene? Yeah, sometimes. Will bullies or trolls get some time in the penalty box? Sure. But a lot of other interesting, positive things will also happen.
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  #111  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:39 AM
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Pink hats and pink underwear for everyone!
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:40 AM
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Penalty box? Ice hockey. Another bad analogy, don't you think Flying?
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  #113  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Pink hats and pink underwear for everyone!


Sheriff Joe lost the election here in Maricopa County. I imagine the pink underwear will go away soon. Besides, it didn't accomplish the intended goal anyway.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:46 AM
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People just need to behave. If someone disagrees with another's posting, he or she ought to say politely "I disagree." But the pattern here by a few is to drive the person with whom they disagree to the ground. Remember, first and foremost, this is a writing forum, and there aren't any ego trophies awarded at the end of each thread. Write peacefully and respect your fellow writer. If you cannot do that, then "piss off" is indeed the right term.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:48 AM
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I thought his color was a fiery, raging red.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:51 AM
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BP, I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

One of the other big writing sites that seems to be thriving has zero tolerance for trolling etc.

I frequented the site years ago, went through an owner change, elimination of the debate forum, purge of troublesome members etc.

And guess what? The workshop and creative areas just kept chugging along as if none of that shit was happening -- because there just wasn't that much crossover in participation between the creative and the debate and other bullshit sections. Not unlike here. You're one of the exceptions.

And I like "interesting stuff" too, but the thing is, almost none of it has anything to do with writing.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think you're wrong in believing that you have a forum and set up rules and people need to follow them and be respectful or orderly. That won't ever happen. There will always be trolls or assholes or people who, for whatever reason, push the limits or outright smash them. These people are interesting and unpredictable. They draw traffic and increase post counts.

The hard part is they require moderation, not the making of stricter and stricter rules to keep such things from ever happening again.

Yeah, some people with thin skin (made worse if their writing is poor, without even potential) will get their feelings hurt and leave. Honestly, they probably weren't here for a very honest reason anyway. And I mean honest with others, but mostly with themselves. If new people are logging in all the time then so what? The traffic is what's important to a good forum.

Will some people be offended and leave? Yes. Will some members notice some poor kid getting picked on, one who obviously can't defend themselves, and intervene? Yeah, sometimes. Will bullies or trolls get some time in the penalty box? Sure. But a lot of other interesting, positive things will also happen.
Bless your heart Brian, you must enjoy being wrong. I know that you're wrong because I've been on both sides at Writer's Beat, and I hear from a lot of people. Guess what - based on correspondence, when we had to close down the IT in 2014 support for it's closure among the rank and file was about 75/25.

The rules haven't been made stricter and stricter. Things are about 1/10th as strict as when I first joined this site. I've granted Mulligans, and even you received a mulligan and came back. Of those given mulligans, only one went out of his way to earn another ban..... And prior staff was not even close to being as relaxed as I am.....

I've been on the gamut of forums, some strict, some free fire zones. Even the flame war free fire zones self moderate after a while. A really harsh forum had a point where a lot of remaining members decided to call a truce.

You want a place where you can insult and name call, but you're finding that both trade related forums and other forums are not putting up with flame wars.

What you don't seem to realize is that on almost every forum there is at least a small amount of decorum, and a stake in the ground that you don't go beyond without consequence. You're always sneaking a toe over that line while looking over your shoulder to see who's watching.

Dude, there's a reason that when you were growing up you were the winner of Received Most Swirlies As A Senior, and when you went back to your reunion you were promptly escorted back to the porcelain punch bowl.

And that's why you want unfettered speech. So that you can cast the insults you want anonymously over the internet without the fear that a hand wont shoot out of nowhere, grab you by the nape of the neck and take you down that oh so familiar path toward dank yellow running waters. That's why there cant even be a line in the sand for the likes of you but something taller than tRUMP's Wall with flashing signs DO NOT GO BEYOND THIS POINT!

The problem with having that big ugly wall for the few that need it is that everyone else with even a touch of restraint then has to look at the ugly specter when they needn't.
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If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
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  #118  
Old 01-24-2017, 11:42 AM
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I think you didn't read my post very closely. I have never been involved in a flame war with anyone, here or other-where's.

Yes, I've said some snarky things—even some nasty things once in a while—and I believe (don't exactly remember which tells you how much my mulligan taught me) that I got timed-out for insulting you. Or maybe Bagit and you.

I don't troll or go out of my way to hassle people, and wouldn't hang around a place that was mostly that kind of thing.

I don't go out of my way to stay anonymous either. Anybody who wants to know who I am in real life is probably already friends with me on Facebook. The rest just need ask.

So, your idea of what I was saying, which was really just: all kinds of people will be in a forum and that's what you need to keep it lively, seems to be blown out of proportion.

Maybe it's you?
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
That's an excellent message, Flying. And that's exactly what I meant by a woman's view point is lacking here. The 'Beat needs more like you. If I were still in the business, I would have sent you a free handbag for such a marvelous piece of information.
CB, your acclaim has lifted my spirits. I've always dreamed of stardom, or at least being right about something. Not to mention free handbags. So you can imagine my unmitigated joy. God Bless You, whether or not He/She exists, and all who sail in you.

Don't you think it's hilarious this is the busiest thread in months on the subject of how comatose the board is? If only Blue was still here, I could point to it as an example of irony.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:51 PM
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With all the beauty surrounding you, if you still need proof God exists, I'd recommend taking off the dark glasses.

Now about lifting your spirits, if my words don't do it, I'm sure there's a tavern within walking distance. Words are cheaper though, much cheaper.
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