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Fact vs Faith: You canít have both. Choose one.

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  #31  
Old 08-29-2016, 08:59 AM
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Facts and faith are like socks and shoes. Those seen wearing one and not the other are usually already in a warm comfortable place. The rest of us wear both.

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  #32  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:07 AM
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agreed

we all know the difference between fact and faith, some just chose to accept things that are taken on faith as a fact for some deluded reason that provides them with a safe place to live.

it's their deal and that's just that. as long as they keep it to themselves then I can't see they do any harm. it when they don't that I have a problem.

if you are entitled to your believes then I am entitled to my facts.

I can't believe that this post is continuing without any proof, but I guess the fact of that, is ----that I am posting to it.


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Old 08-29-2016, 11:11 PM
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Hi JP_Inkswell.

That's the strangest explanation of fact and faith I've run across. I could't stop laughing. Then I thought of people walking around bare footed. No science. No religion. No facts. No faith. I wonder what they think about... Maybe they are beach bum hippies on LSD... Thanks for the laugh. wrc
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  #34  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:28 AM
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One thing for you to ponder. The physical sciences have been identified as fact because they reproduce the same reactions every time, but according to probability, there is a moment where the universe will align and i can walk through that wall, will you ever see that happen? Will you experience it first hand with evidence to bring home? Probably not, but you believe in probability because it has been proven with "fact" right? Unfortunately, The highest levels of science are based on faith. Concepts such as the big bang, the uncertainty principle, quantum entanglement, are all based on a mere "understanding" of the concept, but still not able to "prove" the fact. If you look at the essence of all things, there is no difference between faith, and fact. Everything is in the air. In the highest realms, truth, can also be an illusion.. Nothing is impossible. The gods dance in the sky and change reality.. That is what I believe.. That is what I know. Anything else, is in caution of being considered foolish. But that is just due to my own experiences, and facts of my own faith. Hahaha... Words.. I guess I'm on the opposing side? Silly scientists... Believe everything the fire tells you. Told you how to make a bomb, now you worship it.. Believing in a fact, is merely an act of faith..

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  #35  
Old 08-30-2016, 06:23 PM
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Hey Red Cloud. Greetings to you.

Youíre very good at chop logic (look it up if youíre not clear on it) and I recommend your post to those who want a good example of it.

You tried to prove that facts require faith and therefore faith canít be considered false by insisting on facts. Iíve got to take my hat off to you for some pretty fancy tap dancing. However, after your post/dance, the definitions of both terms remain the same and a reasoning person knows the words are opposed to each other.

As to agnostics, they understand fact and faith fully. But their circumstances wonít allow them to jump one way or the other. They donít want to trash reason because of its value to all of us, and wonít trash belief because of the pain it would cause to those they love. This is a Ďmutually exclusive double imperativeí situation. They know the reality of facts while also the love of those who follow faith. Being in such a situation is a terrible experience I wouldnít wish on anyone. They are stuck in place.

Thank you for your post. Deconstructing it was great fun. wrc
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  #36  
Old 08-31-2016, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
As to agnostics, they understand fact and faith fully. But their circumstances won’t allow them to jump one way or the other. They don’t want to trash reason because of its value to all of us, and won’t trash belief because of the pain it would cause to those they love. This is a ‘mutually exclusive double imperative’ situation. They know the reality of facts while also the love of those who follow faith. Being in such a situation is a terrible experience I wouldn’t wish on anyone. They are stuck in place.
Have you ever known or heard of religious people who believe that atheists are all angry and secretly miserable because they don't have God in their lives? It's fairly common.

It's an assumption based on projecting their own feelings about faith onto others so they can feel better about themselves and their own beliefs.

And here you are, doing the exact same thing by assuming that agnostics are enduring some "terrible experience" and that they are somehow "stuck in place." I think it's far more likely that most agnostics aren't obsessed or overly concerned about it one way or another, almost by definition.

No, it's not quite chop logic; it's more like pure guesswork on your part, which is even worse, especially when applied with such an incredibly broad brush.

But as long as we're being subjective; and considering some of the negative labels you've applied in this thread, it's been my observation that if people are unreasonable, immobilized by fear or unable to think critically etc., it has a lot more to do with life circumstances and environmental factors that have little to do with religious belief.

And of course, the same applies to satisfaction, contentment, the capacity to make decisions based on logic and ones general ability to navigate successfully through life. Those things may or may not be connected to any religious belief or a lack thereof. I think anyone familiar with the principles of cognitive therapy would likely agree. (And keep in mind, I'm not talking about extreme orthodoxy.)

So there's a name for it when you start drawing lines and assigning specific negative attributes to large groups of people without considering the individual. It's called prejudice. There are lots of reasons for it, but none of them are particularly flattering.

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  #37  
Old 08-31-2016, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Hi JP_Inkswell.

That's the strangest explanation of fact and faith I've run across. I could't stop laughing. Then I thought of people walking around bare footed. No science. No religion. No facts. No faith. I wonder what they think about... Maybe they are beach bum hippies on LSD... Thanks for the laugh. wrc
My experience with LSD (as I sit here writing this, barefoot) has been that you start out with faith (the belief that it's going to get you off), which is replaced by disappointment, righteous indignation and anger (when, after waiting the proscribed time, it does not), and then, when you've come to face the fact that you've been burned, the world suddenly seems very different and faith nor fact matters, for you are GOD.

So I don't know if referencing LSD in an argument about faith vs. fact does any good for either side.
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  #38  
Old 08-31-2016, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
They don’t want to trash reason because of its value to all of us, and won’t trash belief because of the pain it would cause to those they love.
BTW, wrc, this statement and previous things you've said lead me to believe you don't really understand what agnosticism is.

Let's look at one example and say that the someone "they love" is a Christian.

If you know anything about Christianity and even if you consider a simple definition of agnosticism; acknowledging that whether god exists or not is unknowable, you would know that is an entirely inadequate position or belief to satisfy a Christian, especially one who is devout.

They are not going to make the distinction between agnosticism and not believing in the Christian version of god and everything that goes with it.

The agnostic would know it. The Christian would know it. Everyone would; except you, apparently.

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  #39  
Old 08-31-2016, 12:41 PM
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what if your goddess is nature, symbolized by the moon, and your version of heaven is the earth as it exist.

I have little need for faith as it is being discussed, I have facts.

but do I believe that the sun will rise or the moon will be full on a certain day. Yes, I do; until the scientists tell me we might be hit by an asteroid.

can this relationship between faith and fact be quantified? I doubt it.


but you folks carry on, it's entertaining.


max
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  #40  
Old 08-31-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Whenever I run into an agnostic I always want to know how they justify a factual knowledge with a belief in a human-made story of God.
"a belief in a human-made story of God."

That doesn't have anything to do with any remotely accepted definition of agnosticism, which is again primarily about taking a position that whether god exists or not is unknowable.

If you bothered to ask an agnostic, they would most likely tell you they reject most conceptions of a god or gods according to any specific religious belief. For example, they don't believe in Jesus or a Christian god.

What they would likely tell you is they can't automatically rule out the existence of all possible conceptions of what god or some higher power.

Do you understand the difference? If you did, then you would know that your belief that agnostics are enduring some kind of "a terrible experience" is nonsense.
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  #41  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:03 PM
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Hi Myers. Glad you're still around. Here's my take on your post:

A 'true believer' never ever questions anything about religion. Most 'sunday cristians' question occasionally. Agnostics, knowing the realities of faith and fact, have no need to question. They know both or they wouldn't lable themselves 'agnostics'.

The only reason I can think of to not take the fork in the road to critical thinking is their concern for others, or perhaps, maybe, concerns about ramifications resulting from public disclosure of atheism.

I can imagine a religious leader with critical thinking skills who understands the issues but is constrained. because to tell the truth, would get him fired, he'd lose his congregation and probably be damned straight to hell by those offended. Instead, he stays in the closet or calls himself agnostic. But if he's purveyor of religion he has to stay in the closet.

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  #42  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
what if your goddess is nature, symbolized by the moon, and your version of heaven is the earth as it exist.

I have little need for faith as it is being discussed, I have facts.

but do I believe that the sun will rise or the moon will be full on a certain day. Yes, I do; until the scientists tell me we might be hit by an asteroid.

can this relationship between faith and fact be quantified? I doubt it.


but you folks carry on, it's entertaining.


max
Not sure who you are talking to.

I'm an atheist. However, unlike wrc, I don't believe in making sweeping negative judgments about people based on what they believe or don't believe, or assigning grandiose attributes to myself by association, like "courageous" and "critical thinker."

I think there's a specific brand of atheism that is about trying to assume a position of superiority simply by virtue of non-belief.

I don't subscribe to that. I know there are believers who are more intelligent than I am, who are more adept at critical thinking, who are better at coping with fear and uncertainty, who have better interpersonal skills etc. The list goes on.

So for example, it would never occur to me to label all believers as "frightened children." I can look around and see that's not true.

I have my reasons for not making that kind of blanket proclamation, mainly, I don't want to look arrogant and foolish.

So yeah, there are atheists who make it far more difficult for the rest of us than has to be. But what are you going to do?
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  #43  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
The only reason I can think of to not take the fork in the road to critical thinking is their concern for others, or perhaps, maybe, concerns about ramifications resulting from public disclosure of atheism.
There is actually some critical thinking involved in not ruling out any conception of god or higher power or being. It just doesn't align with your particular belief.

And do you think you have the market cornered on being satisfied with your own beliefs and not being concerned with what other people think about them? Seriously?

Plus, I hate to break it to you, but "the only reason I can think of" isn't a very compelling platform for an argument.

Again, your idea that agnostics believe in "a human-made story of God" is just plain wrong. I see you've conveniently avoided any defense of that.

Otherwise, these days, there are virtually no consequences associated with declaring you're an atheist. It's practically a fad.

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  #44  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:48 PM
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to whom it may concern

i'm not going anywhere with my statement, sometime I just like to interject reality into moot, lets make that pointless, conversations


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  #45  
Old 08-31-2016, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by max crash View Post
i'm not going anywhere with my statement...
Yeah, I gathered that.

Originally Posted by max crash View Post
sometime I just like to interject reality into moot, lets make that pointless, conversations
The pointlessness of which isn't stopping you from interjecting.

And help me out here; what exactly is your version of "reality" as it pertains to this topic?

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  #46  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:14 PM
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not quite sure how to state it.

we live, we die, and that is all.

I can look at history and tell you that faith in organized religion is responsible for more deaths than the black plague, religion was at the root of the inquisition, the Templar wars, and even today the beheading of non-Muslims by IS. if there is a god and thus his counterpart the devil (neither of which I believe exist in persona) then religion (faith) is the creation of the latter.


let's just look a the base principle, jesus was god's bastard child by a woman married to another man --- and up until lately girls who became pregnant were badly mistreated by this same group of people.

they have 'faith' that when they die their soul will go to heaven when their own teachings tell them that they will rest in the earth until the judgement day.

I have no real problem with faith but blind following of scriptures written thousands of years ago is just plain "i'll use silly"

facts are facts are facts - they can be proven and observed over and over. faith very often disappoints.

if one has faith that a loved one is going to a better place when they die then --- why isn't there a party to send then off?

boil it down, once upon a time there was a soldier, an enemy walked toward him with a grenade. The enemy chanted to his god to protect him. the soldier raised his rifle and shot him dead.

faith is fine but in a world of facts it doesn't make the grade.


I know sort of long winded, and convoluted, hope you get the point.

Max
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  #47  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:58 PM
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Again, not sure if you're directing that at me, but none of that has anything to do with what I've said here...

Like I said, I'm an atheist, so in some respects, you're preaching to the choir, although it's a rather boring and simplistic sermon. And it's not to really all that hard to poke holes in the idea that religion in and of itself is the actual cause of countless wars and deaths etc. But surely you've heard all those arguments.

More to the point, I've recognized the futility of arguing about the existence of god, and that's not what I've been doing.

And is there anyone here making an impassioned case for Jesus or any other belief or religion? I don't think so. So what are you going on about and to whom?

Otherwise, I thought your version of "reality" might be something other than what we've all heard a bazillion times in these discussions.

Oh well. One can remain hopeful, I suppose.

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Old 08-31-2016, 06:54 PM
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see, moot
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Hey Red Cloud. Greetings to you.

You’re very good at chop logic (look it up if you’re not clear on it) and I recommend your post to those who want a good example of it.

You tried to prove that facts require faith and therefore faith can’t be considered false by insisting on facts. I’ve got to take my hat off to you for some pretty fancy tap dancing. However, after your post/dance, the definitions of both terms remain the same and a reasoning person knows the words are opposed to each other.

As to agnostics, they understand fact and faith fully. But their circumstances won’t allow them to jump one way or the other. They don’t want to trash reason because of its value to all of us, and won’t trash belief because of the pain it would cause to those they love. This is a ‘mutually exclusive double imperative’ situation. They know the reality of facts while also the love of those who follow faith. Being in such a situation is a terrible experience I wouldn’t wish on anyone. They are stuck in place.

Thank you for your post. Deconstructing it was great fun. wrc
Circumstances.. Many are a slave to them.

In this case, yours being that you need evidence, so that you may define facts.. So that you can understand and comprehend your own reality. You want something reliable, and you are fixating on the word faith a bit too much. It's understandable behavior.

What good is visual evidence without eyes?

Or the revelation of something that you cannot understand?

A message that you can't hear?

And a mind that refuses to learn?

If you are waiting for fact, to catch up with faith, you will be waiting a while..

Even more,

Like I said, there is really no difference..

Just something for mankind to bicker about,

While they are out there searching for the truth,

Someone, already knows it..

Last edited by Red Cloud; 08-31-2016 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:22 PM
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Hi Meyers. Your post/quote follows my post.

((((((((((((((((((

If you’re accusing me of being an angry aggressive atheist I’m guilty. I’m also guilty of holding Religion to the fire. It took me years to come to this. But I’m sick and tired of Believers getting a free ride. And I’m fighting back as much as I can.

But with your attitude of appeasement I believe you’re not helping those trapped in childhood thinking escape. And you should also acknowledge that long gone are the days when atheists just mumble to themselves and move on.

The Cold War and the accumulation of nuclear weapons changed everything. Yet, again, a Religion gave birth to war. The possibility of species suicide is real.

Religion warps human reasoning. Believers can’t think they’re out of a paper bag, even with a flashlight and a map.

The main reason I’m so focal in my posts and in my stories is I believe that no one can ‘unknow’ something. And if enough people get a jog questioning their mindset they may wake up. And if enough people wake up, maybe we can save ourselves from ourselves.

I’d really like you to join in this fight, but it’s clear you just want everyone to get along. Too bad. The situation has moved way beyond ‘getting along’.

wrc
(((((((((((((((((

Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Have you ever known or heard of religious people who believe that atheists are all angry and secretly miserable because they don't have God in their lives? It's fairly common.

It's an assumption based on projecting their own feelings about faith onto others so they can feel better about themselves and their own beliefs.

And here you are, doing the exact same thing by assuming that agnostics are enduring some "terrible experience" and that they are somehow "stuck in place." I think it's far more likely that most agnostics aren't obsessed or overly concerned about it one way or another, almost by definition.

No, it's not quite chop logic; it's more like pure guesswork on your part, which is even worse, especially when applied with such an incredibly broad brush.

But as long as we're being subjective; and considering some of the negative labels you've applied in this thread, it's been my observation that if people are unreasonable, immobilized by fear or unable to think critically etc., it has a lot more to do with life circumstances and environmental factors that have little to do with religious belief.

And of course, the same applies to satisfaction, contentment, the capacity to make decisions based on logic and ones general ability to navigate successfully through life. Those things may or may not be connected to any religious belief or a lack thereof. I think anyone familiar with the principles of cognitive therapy would likely agree. (And keep in mind, I'm not talking about extreme orthodoxy.)

So there's a name for it when you start drawing lines and assigning specific negative attributes to large groups of people without considering the individual. It's called prejudice. There are lots of reasons for it, but none of them are particularly flattering.
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
If you’re accusing me of being an angry aggressive atheist I’m guilty. I’m also guilty of holding Religion to the fire. It took me years to come to this. But I’m sick and tired of Believers getting a free ride. And I’m fighting back as much as I can.

I wouldn't say aggressive so much as hamfisted.

But with your attitude of appeasement I believe you’re not helping those trapped in childhood thinking escape. And you should also acknowledge that long gone are the days when atheists just mumble to themselves and move on.

The Cold War and the accumulation of nuclear weapons changed everything. Yet, again, a Religion gave birth to war. The possibility of species suicide is real.

Religion warps human reasoning. Believers can’t think they’re out of a paper bag, even with a flashlight and a map.

The main reason I’m so focal in my posts and in my stories is I believe that no one can ‘unknow’ something. And if enough people get a jog questioning their mindset they may wake up. And if enough people wake up, maybe we can save ourselves from ourselves.

I’d really like you to join in this fight, but it’s clear you just want everyone to get along. Too bad. The situation has moved way beyond ‘getting along’.

wrc
(((((((((((((((((
I think religious belief can be harmful in a number of ways that have to do with issues like separation of church and state, legislating morality or infringing on basic rights or dealing with theocratic regimes and terrorism, etc. etc. And I can be quite vocal about those things.

I think if you relegate your argument to specific issues related to religion and belief, then you might have some chance of getting through to someone on some level, even if it's a very small one.

On the other hand, I think making cliche arguments, applying condescending labels and insulting people are rarely effective methods of persuasion. Although you're certainly welcome to keep trying. From what I've seen here, you're preaching to the choir at best, but otherwise pissing in the wind.

So let's just chalk it up to a difference in approach, shall we?

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Old 09-01-2016, 01:12 PM
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Well.

I've read both pages.

All I can say is wow.

This thread ends where it begins; with the subject.

Fact vs Faith: You can’t have both. Choose one

You CAN have both.

The greatest minds have both. So telling people to imagine that they are exclusive opposite realities and trying to get them to pick one and then argue over it, is utter nonsense.

And it looks like it produced two full pages of nonsense. The arguments attempt to follow logic on a bunch of different issues that were originally part of an absurd idea.

The posters have gotten nowhere.there is no conclusion anywhere in sight; there never will be.

Have fun.
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:40 PM
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see, moot
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:57 PM
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None of my posts had anything to do with a dichotomy between fact and faith. They were about giving people the benfift of the doubt and not making blanket judgments about people based on their beliefs or lack thereof.

Yes, I realize that my arguments will fall on the deaf ears of the indented target, but that's the nature of these "debates." It's mostly for the hell of it.

As pointless as it is, it's even more pointless to chime in and tell everyone it's all "nonsense" or "moot" or to say that there isn't going to be any resolution. No kidding. This is the internet.

Last edited by Myers; 09-02-2016 at 03:59 AM..
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:00 AM
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Hi Meyers.

Your comments are welcome.

However, they make me sad. Our ends, helping believers find their way to the light, seem the same. But I'm assuming that's your end. Maybe it's not. Sometimes you put more effort into being my critic than talking about Religion.

I'm wondering if my 'style' of discourse ('take no prisoners') embarrasses you because I label myself 'atheist'? Does that make it hard for you to say you're an atheist? If so, be assured that no one will ever confuse us.

So, with that... I'll accept it what you said that we have different approaches. Maybe we can now move on to more sensible topics than my 'style' of discourse.

wrc
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by wrc View Post
Hi Meyers.

Your comments are welcome.

However, they make me sad. Our ends, helping believers find their way to the light, seem the same. But I'm assuming that's your end. Maybe it's not. Sometimes you put more effort into being my critic than talking about Religion.

I'm wondering if my 'style' of discourse ('take no prisoners') embarrasses you because I label myself 'atheist'? Does that make it hard for you to say you're an atheist? If so, be assured that no one will ever confuse us.

So, with that... I'll accept it what you said that we have different approaches. Maybe we can now move on to more sensible topics than my 'style' of discourse.

wrc
So it appears you're OK with holding feet to the fire, but you don't like all that much when you get the same treatment. I wonder why that is.

What I'm saying seems like a no-brainer to me. Honestly, how do you think people respond to statements like the following?

Believers can’t think they’re out of a paper bag, even with a flashlight and a map.
Think about that. Really.

First of all, in addition to being an insult, it's a canned insult. The worst kind of cliche. You want to present yourself as being reasonable and a "thinker," and this is the best you can do?

You can't reach people by insulting them. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

And yes, it's embarrassing. If this represents your style of discourse and persuasion, then I would be embarrassed for you regardless of the topic or issue. Otherwise, of course, I am embarrassed by association when you say these things under the banner of being an atheist.

So, to start off, if you have something you want to get across to someone, the very first thing you want them to think, at the very least is, "OK, this guy is not an asshole." You want to lower the barriers from the onset.

So the whole tone you've admittedly adopted of being angry and aggressive is a non-starter. To see this only requires the most basic understanding of human nature and what it takes to persuade or negotiate.

And really, that should be instinctual, unless of course your real motivation is to give yourself a boost by putting other people down. Hopefully, that's not the case, but I have to wonder given your approach.

Look, realistically, each of us has a very small circle of influence; family, friends coworkers and to lesser degree, your online audience. How you present yourself through your actions and your words is all you've got. So maybe be a little more thoughtful and don't blow it by coming of like a jerk.

Last edited by Myers; 09-02-2016 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:18 PM
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Okay, Meyers. I'm really not a jerk. And this is the end of our conversation. So good luck to you.

When you realize that we're in a battle for the survival of all life on earth maybe I'll see you on the battlefied. Maybe not.

In the meantime, I will continue on and know you will, too. Bye bye. wrc
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:49 PM
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I didn't say you were a jerk. I said you're coming off like a jerk.

HUGE difference.

But your response is a great barometer of your mindset.

When I reviewed my post I thought about editing out "jerk" and "asshole."

Then I thought, if wrc is REALLY interested in whether or not his approach is effective, he'll consider what I've said, and not take it as an insult.

Considering that my criticism is based on a pretty basic understanding of how you get through to people, I thought that just maybe we could continue the discussion.

OR, he'll zero in on a perceived insult and that will be the end of it.

Pretty interesting, considering your whole approach is based on what you call aggressive and includes insults like the one I cited above.

So of course, you're proving my point and in a big way, and you don't even realize it.

But like they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:44 PM
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We've both stated our POVs more than 3 times. Both of us are becoming boringly redundant. It's time to stop. I said Goodbye. Come on Meyers, say Goodbye... wrc
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Last edited by wrc; 09-02-2016 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:16 PM
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I wonder what Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas might have thought about facts and faith. And logic and philosophy.
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