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What would make an atheist flip?

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  #91  
Old 11-14-2016, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Fairies or someone who will run from his house with a rifle when America's enemies come ashore. If I had to choose one to be a truth, I'll go with the fairies.


Ba dum, peesssshhh!

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Old 11-14-2016, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Fairies or someone who will run from his house with a rifle when America's enemies come ashore. If I had to choose one to be a truth, I'll go with the fairies.


'I'd' not 'I'll'
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  #93  
Old 11-14-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I call bullshit:

Yes but I) this person draws a fairy based on their interpretation of fairies as naked hot chicks - this may not be the interpretation another person has, and II) to keep a person interested in their beliefs this image may have to warp over time according to tastes. For example, if a particular audience member wants to fantisise having a penis greater than 2mm I'm not sure how they will interact with the fairy.
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  #94  
Old 11-14-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
You don't know what means? That people have their beliefs and lives turned upside down for one reason or another, and you don't find anything peculiar about that? That's a huge deal. What did they stumble across or what reached out to them? That's quite a story.
We had crossed lines because I reacted to your post before you edited it. I understood the revision., then revised mine. It's a troubled world!
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  #95  
Old 11-14-2016, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Fairies or someone who will run from his house with a rifle when America's enemies come ashore. If I had to choose one to be a truth, I'll go with the fairies.
What are you talking about? I'm supposing this has some relevance but I don't get it???
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  #96  
Old 11-14-2016, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Well, then, trust yourself. It won't matter anyhow after your last breath. Your spirit will get there regardless whom you trust or what you believe.
Bummer the sociopaths would have taken it over by now, do you know what the safe word is?
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  #97  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:29 AM
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If I wanted to discover something, I'd do a diligent search. Any reasonable atheist gathering information--any kind--about the existence of God would have to keep the door opened, however slightly opened, that the possibility might be there. But I find your attempts to ridicule me for pointing this out extremely childish. You are engaging in a worn and tired practice. Why bring "fairies" into this discussion? To detract from the truth? What you do only reinforces my claim that you are either closed-minded or ignorant. Are far from serious about uncovering the truth and an embarrassment to the many atheists out there wondering whether they have made the right choice or not.

Emily Gardiner Neal was a respected journalist and an atheist. She set out to write a book to debunk the healing ministry. What happened to her was no different from what happens to many atheists who get close to the truth--they became to see the possibility that maybe there is a God out there after all. In Mrs. Neal case, her assignment to write a book depicting the healing ministry as a fraud never happened because she became not only a Christian but part of the healing ministry herself.

Now one last word. I think some of you (not all) need to grow up because as intelligent as you are, you are just as childish. The bold-faced words belong to a hardcore atheist who began a journey to find God. You may click onto the link to read her entire story. There are tens of thousands like her who, when they put the ridicule and disdain aside, end up acknowledging the possibility that they have made the wrong decision.


If you want, you may ridicule this former atheist too for having an open mind.



I concluded that the evidence for God was so strong that it made more sense to believe in God than to believe he wasn't there.

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html

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  #98  
Old 11-15-2016, 09:20 AM
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So what would make an atheist flip?

I don't think there's any doubt a belief in God satisfies several basic psychological needs. It just makes you feel good to be part of something, to feel protected, to believe that death isn't the end of everything.

So naturally, if you open the door to the possibility, then on some level, you might realize that all these things that can make you feel good are available to you. And you can look around and see intelligent believers who attribute their contentment to God.

Then add the encouragement and acceptance you're going to get from other believers, and then there are all the available promotional materials and heartfelt testimonials etc., all designed to win you over.

I'm sure it can be very alluring, especially if you are unhappy or you are in crises or you feel like something is missing from your life. And there will likely be no shortage of believers willing to suggest a solution.

This is what will happen, if you get close the the "truth," and it shouldn't be surprising that some atheists fall for it, even people "who are no slouches when it comes to intellect."

Of course, none of that proves a thing about the existence of God, only that some people are searching for or are desperate for something that will make them happy; that will provide some kind of meaning or give purpose to their lives.

And you know what P.T. Barnum said...

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  #99  
Old 11-15-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
If I wanted to discover something, I'd do a diligent search. Any reasonable atheist gathering information--any kind--about the existence of God would have to keep the door opened, however slightly opened, that the possibility might be there. But I find your attempts to ridicule me for pointing this out extremely childish. You are engaging in a worn and tired practice. Why bring "fairies" into this discussion? To detract from the truth? What you do only reinforces my claim that you are either closed-minded or ignorant. Are far from serious about uncovering the truth and an embarrassment to the many atheists out there wondering whether they have made the right choice or not.

Emily Gardiner Neal was a respected journalist and an atheist. She set out to write a book to debunk the healing ministry. What happened to her was no different from what happens to many atheists who get close to the truth--they became to see the possibility that maybe there is a God out there after all. In Mrs. Neal case, her assignment to write a book depicting the healing ministry as a fraud never happened because she became not only a Christian but part of the healing ministry herself.

Now one last word. I think some of you (not all) need to grow up because as intelligent as you are, you are just as childish. The bold-faced words belong to a hardcore atheist who began a journey to find God. You may click onto the link to read her entire story. There are tens of thousands like her who, when they put the ridicule and disdain aside, end up acknowledging the possibility that they have made the wrong decision.


If you want, you may ridicule this former atheist too for having an open mind.



I concluded that the evidence for God was so strong that it made more sense to believe in God than to believe he wasn't there.

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html
It seems like you are holding atheists to a higher standard than you hold yourself, wouldn't it be fair to accept that some people cannot ever find or see evidence of the phenomena you are espousing and that this phenomena has zero effect on them (and cannot be applied in the form of technology).
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  #100  
Old 11-15-2016, 01:44 PM
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I have to agree with PickelBottom, Cityboy.

Any number of converts does not mean all atheists are believers-in-waiting, and your use of the word 'truth' is a very misleading description of something you believe in which has no evidence. That's why fairies, goblins, Santa and other magical creatures are a valid comparison to a belief in god. As is Richard Dawkins' Flying Spaghetti Monster, though I admit I would like that one to be true!

Your belief is an opinion you have formed based on whatever criteria you have applied to the question and accepted. My opinion is that there is no god. Until proof of existence or non-existence is produced, the two opinions carry equal weight.
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  #101  
Old 11-16-2016, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveHarrison View Post
I have to agree with PickelBottom, Cityboy.

Any number of converts does not mean all atheists are believers-in-waiting, and your use of the word 'truth' is a very misleading description of something you believe in which has no evidence. That's why fairies, goblins, Santa and other magical creatures are a valid comparison to a belief in god. As is Richard Dawkins' Flying Spaghetti Monster, though I admit I would like that one to be true!

Your belief is an opinion you have formed based on whatever criteria you have applied to the question and accepted. My opinion is that there is no god. Until proof of existence or non-existence is produced, the two opinions carry equal weight.
What you are agreeing to is that one guy sits on his ass and the other guy breaks his ass and they both ought to get equal pay. "Seek and ye shall find!" The truth is there just waiting to be discovered. You'll never find God in a self-built, walled-palace cheering each other on. I'm not telling you what to believe, all I'm saying is if you seek God with your heart, your chances greatly improve to validate His existence. That's all I'm saying. Maybe your circumstances prevent you from seeking God. If that's the case, stand pat--you're the boss. But many atheists driven to seek God for whatever reasons have come away "knowing" God exists. My question: What would make so many atheists turn their worlds upside down? The only answer could be--they discovered God and Santa Claus have no relationship whatsoever.

Okay, you have a problem with my use of the word "Truth." Well, then I'll use it in a context everyone will agree on--"The 'truth' shall set you free."

You keep brushing off atheists who made the switch as if it were "no big deal" when in fact it is a "huge deal"--they found something significant that made them reconsider and change the beliefs that had been living with all their lives. It's much more than a "merely."

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  #102  
Old 11-16-2016, 11:30 AM
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Why would you assume that non-belief is always some sort passive decision, and not the result of "seeking" or investigation?

Or is the process automatically invalid because atheists reach a different conclusion — one that doesn't sit right with you personally?
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  #103  
Old 11-16-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
What you are agreeing to is that one guy sits on his ass and the other guy breaks his ass and they both ought to get equal pay. "Seek and ye shall find!" The truth is there just waiting to be discovered. You'll never find God in a self-built, walled-palace cheering each other on. I'm not telling you what to believe, all I'm saying is if you seek God with your heart, your chances greatly improve to validate His existence. That's all I'm saying. Maybe your circumstances prevent you from seeking God. If that's the case, stand pat--you're the boss. But many atheists driven to seek God for whatever reasons have come away "knowing" God exists. My question: What would make so many atheists turn their worlds upside down? The only answer could be--they discovered God and Santa Claus have no relationship whatsoever.

Okay, you have a problem with my use of the word "Truth." Well, then I'll use it in a context everyone will agree on--"The 'truth' shall set you free."

You keep brushing off atheists who made the switch as if it were "no big deal" when in fact it is a "huge deal"--they found something significant that made them reconsider and change the beliefs that had been living with all their lives. It's much more than a "merely."
You make it sound like not seeking god is some kind of weakness or failure. It's a choice, just like any other. I'll agree with the statement about truth setting me free, as I don't see any truth in the claim there is a god and I feel very free.

I was brought up in a Catholic household, so I'm familiar with all the claims, rituals and dogma of that particular organisation and their particular god. But during my teens I realised religious belief is, for me, a nonsense. None of it makes any sense. I'm sure it does for you and many others, and no doubt it is a profound experience to anyone into that sort of stuff. It's no big deal for me. To each his own.

I can't prove there is no god and you can't prove there is one. Sounds like equal footing to me.
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  #104  
Old 11-16-2016, 03:17 PM
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I found it. Actual video of an atheist flipping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spAlIMm8jSg
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  #105  
Old 11-17-2016, 06:46 AM
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You're the boss of your thinking process and have the right to believe however you want. I do find it interesting though how some atheists (especially around this place) mock believers. For instance, I chuckled when one individual made a claim that believers "waste their talents" and then goes on to post a thread about "truths." Then, there are the few who post images of "fairies" to try to turn the discussion into a joke. As you said, there may be no proof (but I don't know exactly what qualifies as proof in your book). However, if you believe that seeing apparitions of deceased loved ones or hearing voices of deceased loved ones is proof) then I'll make the claim that I have the proof. More important, though, even without these spiritual resources, I would have sufficient proof with the life of Jesus Christ. His miracles He performed as well as the miracles His disciples performed. His Disciples willingness to surrender their lives for Him (ten of the eleven were put to death spreading His word). Then, there are the tens of thousands slaughtered in Roman arenas instead of denouncing His name. If that isn't sufficient proof that Christ was indeed the Son of God, then I really don't know what to say but just keep believing as you do. Also, in recent years, there have been many sightings of the Blessed Mother. In Her apparitions around the world, She informs the faithful to pray for believers as well as non-believers. So, I'm not thrashing anyone for being a non-believer when the Supreme Authority in heaven says otherwise.

medjugorje visionaries today

Messages of Our Lady of Sorrows in Kibeho, Rwanda

Many atheists and rationalists are quite sure that miracles cannot occur, and thus may not be willing or able to be convinced by any evidence. Therefore they probably will not be convinced here, and will look for natural explanations or, despite the evidence, question the truth of the stories.

Protestant Christians may also be skeptical that God would heal via the Virgin Mary, and in a place where they may believe superstition is prevalent. But again, how can they explain the evidence?

These aren't fairy tales. There are thousands more. Many people get cured and simply go home because they don't want to become involved with the Catholic churches long investigation pertaining to classifying a "healing."



Jean-Pierre Bely

Jean-Pierre Bely was paralysed with multiple sclerosis, and was classified by the French health system as a total invalid when he went to Lourdes in 1987. He received ‘the anointing of the sick’, and when he returned home he was able to walk. Subsequently, virtually all traces of the illness disappeared. Patrick Fontanaud, an agnostic physician who looked after Bely, said there is no scientific explanation for what occurred.
Gabriel Gargam

Gabriel Gargam was severely injured in a railway accident in 1900, in which he was almost crushed to death and was paralysed from the waist down by a crushed spine. A court ordered the railway to pay him compensation because he was a human wreck who would henceforth need at least two persons to care for him. His condition continued to deteriorate. He was not a religious person, but his mother persuaded him to go on pilgrimage to Lourdes, very weak, fed via a tube and lapsing into unconsciousness. But at Lourdes his paralysis disappeared and he was able to walk, although still very thin and weak. Within a short time, he was eating normally, able to resume work and he lived to 83.
Serge Perrin

Serge Perrin began to suffer neurological problems in 1964 at age 35, and was subsequently diagnosed with thrombosis in the left carotid artery, for which surgery was nor recommended. He visited Lourdes in 1969 as his condition worsened, but there was no improvement. His deterioration continued until 1970, when he was almost blind and unable to care for himself alone. At his wife’s insistence, he visited Lourdes as second time and received the anointing of the sick. By that afternoon, he could walk without the aid of a walking stick and could see without using spectacles. He returned home, fully cured, as was confirmed by a serious of medical tests.

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  #106  
Old 11-17-2016, 09:17 AM
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From my perspective, I don't mind if you choose to believe in God. I don't understand why you believe (and don't explain it to me, because I also don't care why you believe). Your choice to believe in God does no harm to me and mine.

Some religious people do a great deal of good. Here in the UK, the Salvation Army have a long history of feeding the hungry and housing the homeless and not judging the people they help, and I think they're fantastic. If your faith inspires you to do that then I respect it.

However, there are some whose religious beliefs make them oppressive, as where (for example) they campaign against gay marriage, or when a former Pope preached against sending condoms to Africa. Those are wrong and evil things to say, and they harm other people. If you say those things then yes, I absolutely do join issue with you.

I'm afraid the, err, apparent similarities between believing in God and believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy are a real issue for atheists. They're a real obstacle to any attempt to persuade us towards religious faith; because I'm afraid that yes, a religious faith really does seem childish to us. Charming and appealing, but from our perspective it's about a great big beard in the sky who's going to make everything okay if you only believe in him hard enough. I'm sorry if that seems insulting, but it's a real issue for us and you'll never convert an atheist without tackling that concern ---- it all looks like the kind of wishful thinking that bad parents use to make childhood magical.

I don't believe in miracles because a miracle is an act of God and there is, with all due respect for those who choose to believe otherwise, quite obviously no God. I do believe in amazing medical outcomes, positive and negative, which surprise healthcare professionals of all stripes. But that doesn't mean there's a God. What it means is that doctors don't know everything.
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  #107  
Old 11-17-2016, 09:25 AM
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Some _________ do a lot of good too; others are clowns.


Another generalization.


Who cares whether you believe in miracles or not. If these are real issues, then get off your butt and seek the truth. What would make you even ponder the existence of God? Would an apparition of a deceased loved one standing at the foot of your bed telling you not to worry because where they are everything is peaceful and beautiful? Or would you still bang your head against the wall trying to convince yourself you hallucinated? I mean, at what point, does the slightest crack of light make you wonder about the possible existence of God? Or do you remain the fierce warrior to the "no such thing" cause regardless what takes place around you?

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Old 11-17-2016, 09:39 AM
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Oh, no, I'm not open-minded about this at all. There's no chance at all of me getting off my butt to go looking for your God.

The only way to change my mind would be to show me extraordinarily good evidence, by which I mean something that can't be explained by human ignorance, stupidity, fakery or deceit. And you can't show me that.
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Old 11-17-2016, 11:30 AM
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I cannot show you only because you have to yourself. It amuses me how you brush off anything pertaining to God as ignorance, stupidity, fakery, or deceit. And, yes, you have answered the "open-mindedness" question yourself--you are indeed narrow-minded. What a waste of talent.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
What you are agreeing to is that one guy sits on his ass and the other guy breaks his ass and they both ought to get equal pay. "Seek and ye shall find!" The truth is there just waiting to be discovered. You'll never find God in a self-built, walled-palace cheering each other on. I'm not telling you what to believe, all I'm saying is if you seek God with your heart, your chances greatly improve to validate His existence. That's all I'm saying. Maybe your circumstances prevent you from seeking God. If that's the case, stand pat--you're the boss. But many atheists driven to seek God for whatever reasons have come away "knowing" God exists. My question: What would make so many atheists turn their worlds upside down? The only answer could be--they discovered God and Santa Claus have no relationship whatsoever.

Okay, you have a problem with my use of the word "Truth." Well, then I'll use it in a context everyone will agree on--"The 'truth' shall set you free."

You keep brushing off atheists who made the switch as if it were "no big deal" when in fact it is a "huge deal"--they found something significant that made them reconsider and change the beliefs that had been living with all their lives. It's much more than a "merely."
I am an example of an atheist who "flipped" I found God, He is a raving sociopath who built the world in which I live.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Some _________ do a lot of good too; others are clowns.


Another generalization.


Who cares whether you believe in miracles or not. If these are real issues, then get off your butt and seek the truth. What would make you even ponder the existence of God? Would an apparition of a deceased loved one standing at the foot of your bed telling you not to worry because where they are everything is peaceful and beautiful? Or would you still bang your head against the wall trying to convince yourself you hallucinated? I mean, at what point, does the slightest crack of light make you wonder about the possible existence of God? Or do you remain the fierce warrior to the "no such thing" cause regardless what takes place around you?


The only thing that hearing voices of dead loved ones, and seeing their apparitions at the foot of my bed would do for me, is make me seek the services of a good psychiatrist.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:23 PM
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And a good psychiatrist, psychologist or grief counselor would tell you it's not an uncommon result of the grieving process.
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Old 11-17-2016, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
And a good psychiatrist, psychologist or grief counselor would tell you it's not an uncommon result of the grieving process.


Really? I mean, to here actual voices and see ghosts? That sounds more like schizophrenia... or maybe alcoholism.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:08 PM
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Howdy Cityboy.

I see you're still banging your drum of special confused logic. Are you doing this because your god is speaking thru you in a moment of divine revelation? Are you conduit for your god, or do you actually have original thoughts?

I've noted over the years that true believers always seem so satisfied with their testimonials. It always made me wonder if they imagined St. Peter putting a check mark next to their name for the final accounting so the god could give them a special reward. Say, double wings as they are granted angelhood?

However, I do know that once the discussion goes outside reality anything is possible. And double wings on you seems better than the paste on silver stars next to a name on the roster of Sunday School children.

Of all the true believers I've met in my life, and there have been many, you have more energy in testifying than all of them put together. I hope those check marks next to your name pays off you.

Just think. With double wings you'll be part of god's patrol to help believers still on earth. And think of the speed with four wings! It'll be like a jet humming bird.

wrc
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  #115  
Old 11-17-2016, 02:11 PM
Myers (Offline)
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Really? I mean, to here actual voices and see ghosts? That sounds more like schizophrenia... or maybe alcoholism.
We lost our first child when she was an infant. My wife was awakened by a crying baby several times. She made it clear that it wasn't anything like a dream; she could actually hear it. I had dreams about a little girl that were nothing like any dream I've had before since, incredibly real with none of the strange inconsistencies of my usual dreams; almost indistinguishable from experience or real memories.

I know those aren't exactly the same as visions or hallucinations, but the experiences led me to look into it further, and I learned more vivid hallucinations aren't all that uncommon and it seemed more plausible based on what we experienced. But don't take my word for it -- there are plenty of articles about it out there.

Last edited by Myers; 11-17-2016 at 03:26 PM..
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  #116  
Old 11-17-2016, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
We lost our first child when she was an infant. My wife was awakened by a crying baby several times. She made it clear that it wasn't anything like a dream; she could actually hear it. I had dreams about a little girl that were nothing like any dream I've had before since, incredibly real with none of the strange inconsistencies of my usual dreams; almost indistinguishable from experience or real memories.

I know those aren't exactly the same as visions or hallucinations, but the experiences led me to look into it further, and I learned more vivid hallucinations aren't all that uncommon and it seemed more plausible based on what we experienced. But don't take my word for it -- there are plenty of articles about it out there.
Myers, this is off the record. Not trying to sell anything here ... and you could dismiss it as nonsense or however you feel. Having dreams that feel nothing like anything before are actually called "visitations." And they aren't dreams but just what they imply--visits. In the metaphysical world--world of supernatural events and spirits--it is commonly known that the easiest access for a deceased loved one to get to us is during sleep when our conscious mind shuts down and the door to the spiritual realm springs open and provides an entrance for our deceased loved ones to reach us.

When I'd meditate frequently years ago I was was so connected to the spiritual plane that whenever a relative or friend passed I would be visited by them in my sleep within days of their passing. I cannot be certain in your case, but it is quite possible the dream you explained was indeed a "visitation." We'll just leave it there. And sorry about the loss of your daughter.

Last edited by Cityboy; 11-17-2016 at 04:37 PM..
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  #117  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:30 PM
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Hi Meyers.

Losing a child has to be one of the most devastating experiences I can think of. My heart goes out to you. And I'm sure your mind did whatever was needed to be done to ease the pain.

I've come to the point of view that everything perceived by the human mind is felt realistically. Imagining gravity is perceived as true even through its invisible. So are atoms. So are dreams, as well as hallucinations. All of it is perceived as actual by the human mind.

And, of course, rationality trains the mind to isolate fact from fiction. Which doesn't devalue non factual experiences for those having them. It does, however, suggest that these experiences shouldn't be used to build systems which demands others to think and live a certain way.

I'm sorry you, your wife and daughter had that experience. wrc

Originally Posted by Myers View Post
We lost our first child when she was an infant. My wife was awakened by a crying baby several times. She made it clear that it wasn't anything like a dream; she could actually hear it. I had dreams about a little girl that were nothing like any dream I've had before since, incredibly real with none of the strange inconsistencies of my usual dreams; almost indistinguishable from experience or real memories.

I know those aren't exactly the same as visions or hallucinations, but the experiences led me to look into it further, and I learned more vivid hallucinations aren't all that uncommon and it seemed more plausible based on what we experienced. But don't take my word for it -- there are plenty of articles about it out there.
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  #118  
Old 11-17-2016, 05:42 PM
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Well, I appreciate that Cityboy.

I've lost my folks and a brother too, and we all very close. But I didn't have any dreams or similar experiences. I think that's because the circumstances of my daughter's death were very unexpected and traumatic. As soon as I began to process what happened, the dreams stopped.

I can understand how some people might find comfort in that kind of experience and believing that it was a visitation of some kind; that you are somehow still connected to someone you've lost. But I found comfort and support from my wife, friends and family; and over time, the intense grief has subsided.

In the end, I don't feel like I've lost or I am missing anything by recognizing that my dream was a way of coping with loss. I've arrived at a plausible explanation; and one that makes sense to me, and I'm perfectly satisfied with that.

Last edited by Myers; 11-17-2016 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:03 PM
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Strict causality leads to a problem. If you follow back the cosmos to its inceptional moment mathematics breaks down. Time fails to exist in the eotemporal, prototemporal or even I would argue in the atemporal sense as atemporality is a concept that requires a tangible mooring.

If you go beyond the singularity, which you must but cant, you are confronted with infinite possibility each with their own infinite histories. The only rational method of compartmentalizing this system, as this universe is a propagation of the systems prior to it, is to jump out of the system itself which appears to me, today at least, conceptually impossible hence our ancestor's insistence on the ineffability of god which can in truth be anything.

Now we could say that this universe is the decay of some higher order or dimension, that its a false bubble, that its a dream, a creation whatever. Whatever it is it is fundamentally an expression of the instability of nothing.

Of course with that statement we run into a problem which is the conceptualization of nothing. What is nothing? Will nothing come from nothing? Poor poor Cordelia richest of tongues so rich French could fetch. But nothing is an impossibility. Suppose that everything in existence were to be annihilated. Even after the last gasp of zero-point energy evaporated there would still be the category of things that had been, things that are not, and times when things were and the time that is not.

Things things to puzzle.

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  #120  
Old 11-17-2016, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Strict causality leads to a problem. If you follow back the cosmos to its inceptional moment mathematics breaks down. Time fails to exist in the eotemporal, prototemporal or even I would argue in the atemporal sense as atemporality is a concept that requires a tangible mooring.

If you go beyond the singularity, which you must but cant, you are confronted with infinite possibility each with their own infinite histories. The only rational method of compartmentalizing this system, as this universe is a propagation of the systems prior to it, is to jump out of the system itself which appears to me, today at least, conceptually impossible hence our ancestor's insistence on the ineffability of god which can in truth be anything.

Now we could say that this universe is the decay of some higher order or dimension, that its a false bubble, that its a dream, a creation whatever. Whatever it is it is fundamentally an expression of the instability of nothing.

Of course with that statement we run into a problem which is the conceptualization of nothing. What is nothing? Will nothing come from nothing? Poor poor Cordelia richest of tongues so rich French could fetch. But nothing is an impossibility. Suppose that everything in existence were to be annihilated. Even after the last gasp of zero-point energy evaporated there would still be the category of things that had been, things that are not, and times when things were and the time that is not.

Things things to puzzle.
It's no wonder gods were invented!
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