WritersBeat.com
 

Go Back   WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table

The Intellectual Table Discussions on political topics, social issues, current affairs, etc.


Gods and Guns

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 03-30-2016, 12:59 PM
Bagit's Avatar
Bagit (Offline)
Dungeon Keeper
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Atlantis; near the west shores of Zingara
Posts: 5,427
Thanks: 878
Thanks 491
Default


wyf asked the question. I made an attempt it answer it. I followed her lead by using the generalizing language, so I realize what I've said doesn't apply to EVERYONE.
Okay, okay. But dammit, I was looking for another "fair enough"!

__________________
Battle is tricky. Sometimes one can only hope that luck strikes favorably. But without effort, luck is sacrificed.
We The People!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bagit For This Useful Post:
  #62  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:48 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,532
Thanks: 439
Thanks 1,230
Default

Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
The arguments about a 'disarmed society' are meaningless here, Non. As Mohican has pointed out, to achieve that status would require the locking down of the entire populace, a huge military presence performing door-to-door, attic to basement, every nook and cranny type searches, nation-wide, all at once, and then, what about the millions of square miles of creek and canyon, mountains with caves and crevices, woods that go on forever?

You can't just threaten everyone and expect them to turn them in -- this nation was founded on independence and thumbing your nose at the Government.

The unique position we find ourselves in, that foreigners don't take into account, is that our nation came into being and was developed at the same time as the modern firearm. The two are inexorably entwined, in our culture and in our minds. There is no way to eliminate the very thing which made us what we are. Others may look on in horror, but we were born of the gun and will die of the gun. That's just the way we are.

And Binx, personally, I like testing my beliefs. I may seem adamant about something I really only feel luke-warm about, but only to elicit the strongest response, giving me more information on the subject. If I find that I can be convinced of something contrary to what I believe, I am appreciative of the effort that someone took to do so.

I hate being wrong, and so my arguments are a search for what is right.


If we outlawed guns in the US, we wouldn't have to round them all up. Many would turn them in, and the others would become contraband. The price would skyrocket on the street, making them too expensive for common criminals and most mentally f***ed people to afford. I'm sure that there are lots of Australians with guns still in their homes. The idea is that there would be no access to 'new' guns, with exceptions for hunting and professionals, of course.

But... There's not much appetite for this sort of thing here.

We are a competitive society, and one may have to defend his bigscreen with a pistol. Capitalism and survival of the fittest brings fear, and rightfully so.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:00 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
That assumes that the right to own guns is a 'true' right. I'd argue that.

You didn't answer my question, though. How bad would things have to get before you decided that your right to own guns no longer outweighed the rights of victims to stay alive?
You mentioned my right to bare arms. (I do have the biceps for sleeveless tees) And what would it take to give it up. Now you say this right is arguable. That's moving the goal post in your argument.

As to your question, the answer you desire is wrapped up in a fallacy - at what point would "Mass shootings" get so common that I would agree to give up my guns to prevent it

Fallacy 1. People agreeing to surrender their arms will lead everyone to do so. That''s false.

Fallacy 2 Deciding that if things get that bad - I would want to give up guns or other weapons. If there was a mass shooting every day, I'd be more inclined to strap on an additional Rosco or two.

Fallacy 3. There aren't a lot of Mass shootings. Even hardcore German Pietist have enough respect for Catholic Mass that they won't shoot someone at Mass.

and now for Mohican's hackneyed but true saying of the day - Gun Control is hitting what you shoot at. Let's call the other thing what it is - personal disarmament.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.

Last edited by Mohican; 03-30-2016 at 07:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 03-30-2016, 07:36 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
I'll assume that the US military kit is similar to the British gear with which I'm familiar. (It's a fairly safe assumption, I should think; we buy US-made weapons and you buy British-made ones.)

The Javelin ATGM, a shoulder-launched infantry anti-tank weapon, costs GB£50,000 (which is US$80,000) to fire. The Starstreak SAM, a shoulder-launched infantry anti-aircraft weapon, costs GB£45,000 to fire. These are good prices. They'll destroy millions of dollars worth of kit.

Maybe a reservist can learn to fire those things, but imagine what it costs to train one. At those prices, I can fully understand why it's better to have professional soldiers, who are less likely to miss, and who you can monitor and guarantee will be available when you need them.
I'll just respectfully disagree. I'll ask a few people still "in", but if they are training regular army infantry then they will typically train reservist in the same role.

If it were cost prohibitive to train someone on shoulder fired rockets then they would come up with inexpensive training rounds - or devise a simulator. The cynic in me would say that as a boon to the arms makers they would just train with the expensive rounds, anyway.

A difference I would see more between regular Army is level of fitness versus skill.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 03-30-2016, 08:07 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
More Americans are shot by toddlers than by terrorists.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-kille...ns-terrorists/

If you set it as all toddlers and say only Islamic Terrorist then you are correct - by two people - according to the snarky people at snopes.

If you would call the scum who murdered the black church goers in Charleston, SC a terrorism and make it all terrorist then in 2015 more people were killed by terrorists than by toddlers and then at least for 2015 your statement becomes false.

I hate to diminish these deaths of the shot by toddlers or death by terrorist but as statistics, in a country of over 300,000,000 people this is a blip.

Children's deaths are particularly sad, avoidable deaths are sadder yet. The environment where a toddler can obtain a loaded weapon and shoot themselves or others is either very, very lax or very, very grim - as in raised next to a meth lab type grim.

That sort of thing should be almost totally avoidable (even beyond 21/300,000,000 avoidable) and there should be sharp repercussions for the adults involved in that.


To another point, and something about standing armies and who is ready "The Next Time Democracy Is Threatened"

The Brits are mainly unarmed, and if it ever gets to another situation where they fear invasion, like in WWII, they will probably ask the U.S. to provide rifles for a home guard.

__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.

Last edited by Mohican; 03-30-2016 at 08:21 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-30-2016, 08:53 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
If we outlawed guns in the US, we wouldn't have to round them all up. Many would turn them in, and the others would become contraband. The pr

Have you really thought this through? If guns are outlawed they will go House to House. If you thing the bATFe expunges the background check records like they are supposed to I have an Island in New York City for sale with a really purty statue.

In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina showed that in micro....
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-30-2016, 09:10 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,532
Thanks: 439
Thanks 1,230
Default

Yes, and the price would skyrocket on the black market. With no gun show loopholes and very little justifiable manufacturing they would slowly disappear. True, they'd still be in people's houses, but their use would be illegal.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-30-2016, 09:12 PM
Prodigalson's Avatar
Prodigalson (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Humboldt Co., CA
Posts: 2,405
Thanks: 269
Thanks 514
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
If we outlawed guns in the US, we wouldn't have to round them all up. Many would turn them in, and the others would become contraband. The price would skyrocket on the street, making them too expensive for common criminals and most mentally f***ed people to afford. I'm sure that there are lots of Australians with guns still in their homes. The idea is that there would be no access to 'new' guns, with exceptions for hunting and professionals, of course.

But... There's not much appetite for this sort of thing here.

We are a competitive society, and one may have to defend his bigscreen with a pistol. Capitalism and survival of the fittest brings fear, and rightfully so.
Wait a second -- Almost ALL guns on the street are already contraband, having been stolen, yet their prices are extremely low ($100 for a Ruger .357 Magnum? I turned it down, telling him, "Everything's only worth twenty dollars on the street." He probably held out for eighty.) Or maybe I just know more desperate criminals.

And if they need more 'new' guns, the Mexicans would be glad to sell us some of ours back.

And I know no one who would turn them all in. Most have a couple registered guns they don't care about, just for such an eventuality, but give up all their guns voluntarily? Ain't gonna happen.
__________________
Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-30-2016, 09:31 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Post gun confiscation prices could go the other way, with a smart buyer working the seller on the risk/reward factor. Stolen items or things that have been made contraband often sell less than they did when there was a legal market.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-30-2016, 09:41 PM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

And the Gun Show Loophole is pretty much a myth - the only qualifier being check your state laws. Laws regarding the sale of firearms vary per state

If you are at a gun show selling guns about 99.9 % of gun show operators will require that you have an FFL unless you are selling guns that do not meet the bATFe's definition of firearm.

Most even eliminate the parking lot sales of private party to private party - which are legal in most of the free states.

Gun Show Loophole is 99.99 % misinformation emotionally parading around as fact.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-30-2016, 11:53 PM
Non Serviam's Avatar
Non Serviam (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 1,463
Thanks: 71
Thanks 590
Default

Wow, Snopes bloke really didn't want that to be true, did he? He criticised their methods and their definitions and then grudgingly admitted they were technically correct.

Which is the problem with debates on which the US is polarised. All the numbers come from a person with an angle. And the news channels seek so-called balance by representing one person from each side (which in the case of the really ridiculous this-is-only-a-thing-in-the-US debates like "creation science" and climate change, leads to news channels putting respected international experts up against weird cranks and giving them equal time).

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Big-ass poster
Absolutely true: that happened and it wasn't the only sense in which we begged. Let's give it context.

At the time that poster was produced, the British Empire was a bit larger than it is now. In fact, it contained rather a lot more people than the Soviet Union did. India, for example, did not become independent from Britain until 1947... and during the second world war it produced the largest volunteer force in history, ever. Two million men under arms. And Canada and Australia and New Zealand and South Africa were all using British kit too. We'd armed the nations of the world against fascism.

Then rather unexpectedly to say the least, France collapsed in six weeks. The German plan was to drive the Brits into the sea, which dumb; the whole German Dunkirk strategy arose from the German idea that the sea was a barrier. They didn't understand that to Britain, the sea is a road. So we evacuated 338,000 men including almost the entire expeditionary force off the beaches and out of the harbour under the Germans' noses, leaving them standing there on the beach going "Wow".

But the problem with that was that the soldiers left a load of their military kit on the beaches, and when they got back they had to be rearmed. Pronto, because from the fall of France to the day Germany declared war on Russia ---- more than a year! ---- Britain was on her own.

So yeah, we begged, and the US government sold us a load of military kit. At fair prices, it has to be said, and on easy credit terms. (We did pay back the whole lot, with interest ---- the final instalment reached the US treasury in 2006. Of course, you'll forgive any tinpot third world dictatorship their debts...)

Yes. True. Needs context.
__________________
A few of my stories:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


English is a strange language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-31-2016, 05:16 AM
wyf's Avatar
wyf (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK, bottom half
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 135
Thanks 126
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Now you say this right is arguable. That's moving the goal post in your argument.
Not really. Rights are granted and taken away by government. Owning a gun is not in the same leage, human-rights-wise, as food on the table, a roof over your head and all that basic stuff.

Over here we do NOT have the right to own guns in the same way you do, likewise most of the rest of the world, so I think we can safely assume that this is not a 'human right' but just a convention you choose not to give up.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Fallacy 1. People agreeing to surrender their arms will lead everyone to do so. That''s false.
I never said that. A lot will abide by the law and surrender weapons on a buyback type scheme. Those that dpn't will need to be convinced.

Meth labs are illegal.The authorities take them away. If guns were outlawed what would the difference be?

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Fallacy 2 Deciding that if things get that bad - I would want to give up guns or other weapons. If there was a mass shooting every day, I'd be more inclined to strap on an additional Rosco or two.
OK let me ask a different question. How bad would things have to be before you accepted that everyone should have a note from their doctor saying they aren't either deranged or suicidal, a note from the sherrif saying they aren't criminals or known for antisocial behaviour, and a note from the local gun club saying they have passed an exam on how to handle and store guns without hurting themselves or anyone else? And maybe certification of each weapon so your sheriff knows who's selling which gun to which person, and makinf sure that guns only get sold even privately to people who aren't nuts? Wouldn't that be a sane way of doing things?

Fallacy 3. There aren't a lot of Mass shootings. Even hardcore German Pietist have enough respect for Catholic Mass that they won't shoot someone at Mass.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
and now for Mohican's hackneyed but true saying of the day - Gun Control is hitting what you shoot at. Let's call the other thing what it is - personal disarmament.
...and I know that you guys will never give guns up. But restricting ownership to sane people might be worth thinking about. C'mon, Mo, give a little. Admit that what you have isn't perfect. It won't hurt.
__________________
How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself. ~ Anais Nin
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-31-2016, 05:19 AM
wyf's Avatar
wyf (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK, bottom half
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 135
Thanks 126
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
[
The last time democracy was threatened - last 2 times in fact - we did ok waiting for you guys to get your heads out of your backsides and join in.
__________________
How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself. ~ Anais Nin
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-31-2016, 07:00 AM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,532
Thanks: 439
Thanks 1,230
Default

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
The last time democracy was threatened - last 2 times in fact - we did ok waiting for you guys to get your heads out of your backsides and join in.


The reason we didn't jump right in was because our ruling class was not sure who's side to be on. (See Buck v. Bell). We also had extensive business deals with parties on both sides.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-31-2016, 08:24 AM
Prodigalson's Avatar
Prodigalson (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Humboldt Co., CA
Posts: 2,405
Thanks: 269
Thanks 514
Default

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Not really. Rights are granted and taken away by government. Owning a gun is not in the same leage, human-rights-wise, as food on the table, a roof over your head and all that basic stuff..
There are no basic human rights. Rights are fought for and codified by groups of people who then must protect them. There will always be someone who doesn't like what some people have decided they have a right to, and they will try to take away that right. The strong survive...

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
...and I know that you guys will never give guns up. But restricting ownership to sane people might be worth thinking about. C'mon, Mo, give a little. Admit that what you have isn't perfect. It won't hurt.
Gun ownership is restricted in the US. However, in this flawed little experiment of ours, there are also things like right to privacy, against search and siezure, etc, that prevent us from knowing everyone who might have some latent loopiness within them, and taking their guns.

Shit happens.
__________________
Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:29 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Wow, Snopes bloke really didn't want that to be true, did he? He criticised their methods and their definitions and then grudgingly admitted they were technically correct.
.
Snopes is tyically lefty - and is full of "right wing tropes" or "conservative tropes" comments.

But in the end, if you leave the definition open, then your statement was false.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:39 AM
Non Serviam's Avatar
Non Serviam (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 1,463
Thanks: 71
Thanks 590
Default

Let's revisit that statement.

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
More Americans are shot by toddlers than by terrorists.

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
shot
__________________
A few of my stories:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


English is a strange language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:40 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
...and I know that you guys will never give guns up. But restricting ownership to sane people might be worth thinking about. C'mon, Mo, give a little. Admit that what you have isn't perfect. It won't hurt.

I don't think I ever said that the insane should be running around with guns. (nor should they hold political office.

I have one issue with using insanity as a bar - There is what a vast majority thinks of as insane or irrational behavior, and then there are people that can sit in judgment to call people insane for other reasons.

As far as rights, there are several schools of thought - by your statement you believe that your rights come from government - so that they come from men. (humans)

If you have no clear charter, and a thought that one generation of men should not bind the following generations, then what people construe as rights are subject to whims.

I view my rights as coming from God, and are there if I can keep them, or if others are willing to side with me. In the span of 200 some years we've went from thinking that that our government acknowledged our rights to the point where people are erroneously taught that the government is the source of their rights. If the Government - fallible men - give you something it isn't a right - they are granting you - for the time - a privilege.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:45 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
Let's revisit that statement.



I can go back and find more people SHOT by terrorists than Toddlers.

But we're quibbling over a small number - And in case you missed it I think people leaving toddlers in places to get loaded guns is deplorable. And there should be a strong punishment for these people.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 03-31-2016, 10:00 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
ing them standing there on the beach going "Wow".

So yeah, we begged, and the US government sold us a load of military kit. At fair prices, it has to be said, and on easy credit terms. (We did pay back the whole lot, with interest ---- the final instalment reached the US treasury in 2006. Of course, you'll forgive any tinpot third world dictatorship their debts...)

Yes. True. Needs context.
There were things Sold - one government to the other, but there were people in the US who gave - as in gratis - rifles, shotguns, handguns, telescopes, binoculars to the Brits.

An interesting aside - one of my Brother In Laws was a fire arms dealer. He was approached by an estate because there was a list of fire arms donated to the NRA - Arm Britain program (whatever it was called) Could he A. place a value on the guns and B. Did he know if they could be returned.

A The Guns, even if in poor shape would have been a valuable collection and
B. No, there was no hope of them being returned to the owner. There's a bit of Hearburn with some of the old geezers that their daddy's and grandaddy's guns were not returned. As far as whose fault that is I don't have an answer.

And yes, it's easy to forgive third world tinpot dictators their debts when you are playing with other peoples money.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 03-31-2016, 11:29 AM
Non Serviam's Avatar
Non Serviam (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 1,463
Thanks: 71
Thanks 590
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
There were things Sold - one government to the other, but there were people in the US who gave - as in gratis - rifles, shotguns, handguns, telescopes, binoculars to the Brits.
There were. And there were also Americans who left their homeland, took ship to Britain and volunteered to fight fascism. So many of them, in fact, that the RAF formed Eagle Squadrons of US pilots. I feel rather more grateful to the ones who helped to do the bleeding.

Nevertheless, taken as a whole, the US reaction to those events was not their greatest moment, and it stands in stark contrast to the rest of the English-speaking world. Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa all declared war on Germany in response to the German attack on Poland, either on 3rd or 4th September 1939.
__________________
A few of my stories:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


English is a strange language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 03-31-2016, 01:27 PM
Bagit's Avatar
Bagit (Offline)
Dungeon Keeper
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Atlantis; near the west shores of Zingara
Posts: 5,427
Thanks: 878
Thanks 491
Default

Here's a little angle. When one thinks of which country leads most "police" control throughout the world, who is it?

Personally, I think of it being North America. Now add that illegal aliens are slipping through undetected and refugees allowed safe haven here. I'd think that terrorists are using these avenues into America and their cells are growing. I'd say the right to own a gun in America isn't going to be extinguished anytime soon without a serious fight.
__________________
Battle is tricky. Sometimes one can only hope that luck strikes favorably. But without effort, luck is sacrificed.
We The People!

Last edited by Bagit; 03-31-2016 at 01:40 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 04-01-2016, 07:38 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
There were. And there were also Americans who left their homeland, took ship to Britain and volunteered to fight fascism. So many of them, in fact, that the RAF formed Eagle Squadrons of US pilots. I feel rather more grateful to the ones who helped to do the bleeding.

Nevertheless, taken as a whole, the US reaction to those events was not their greatest moment, and it stands in stark contrast to the rest of the English-speaking world. Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa all declared war on Germany in response to the German attack on Poland, either on 3rd or 4th September 1939.

You're leaving out Claire Chenault and the Flying Tygers. A group of US citizens (including Pappy Boyington) flew for Chenault and learned the Japanese fighter pilot inside and out and created tactics so that they could be successful with the P38 and later extremely outclassed F4 Wildcat.

Prior to the declaration of war there were three camps in the US -
Go to War with Britain against the Axis -FDR really wanted to go to war

Go to war with Germany against Britain (JFKs Father Joe was a strong advocate of this)

And people who thought we didn't have a dog in that fight.

Once the US decided to enter the fray, the dissent ended to a very large degree.

Not our finest moment? Staying out of wars if you can is always better than the alternative. And once again, we had to step in to save the Brits and the French from themselves and from a problem they helped create.

At least the Brits had one contribution to the effort - the very fine Rolls Royce Merlin aviation engine....
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.

Last edited by Mohican; 04-01-2016 at 08:20 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 04-01-2016, 08:04 AM
Binx B
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What was it Churchill said? "You can count on Americans to do the right thing—after they've tried everything else."
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 04-01-2016, 09:41 AM
Non Serviam's Avatar
Non Serviam (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 1,463
Thanks: 71
Thanks 590
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
once again, we had to step in to save the Brits and the French from themselves and from a problem they helped create.

At least the Brits had one contribution to the effort - the very fine Rolls Royce Merlin aviation engine....
Save us? We're an island. We'd broken the Axis air force in the Battle of Britain and sunk the Axis fleet in harbour at Taranto two years before the States entered the war.

When your politicians ask for British help in a war (which happens, incidentally, every time you start a war), it doesn't take us two years to decide whether we want to play.
__________________
A few of my stories:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
;

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


English is a strange language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought though.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 04-02-2016, 11:39 PM
Prodigalson's Avatar
Prodigalson (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Humboldt Co., CA
Posts: 2,405
Thanks: 269
Thanks 514
Default

I would think we should be ashamed on both sides of the pond at how quickly our leaders are willing to jump into wars which have nothing to do with our security or safety, other than to create conditions which jeopardize both.
__________________
Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Prodigalson For This Useful Post:
Bagit (04-03-2016)
  #87  
Old 04-03-2016, 06:34 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post

Nevertheless, taken as a whole, the US reaction to those events was not their greatest moment, and it stands in stark contrast to the rest of the English-speaking world. Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa all declared war on Germany in response to the German attack on Poland, either on 3rd or 4th September 1939.
If you are going to enter a fray which will take the entire focus of the nation you really have to determine what is the right side.

And you have to realize that people in 'Murrica stopped thinking about the UK as the mother country about 1782 or so. And there were probably a few old, old rebels and sons of rebels that wondered where was Britain when they needed Britain.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa had fonder remembrances of Empire the the folk of the United States. Australia and New Zealand also had more practical reasons to join the motherland.

It's very easy several generations later to chap 'Murrica for getting into the war on a time table that didn't suit the Limeys. But 'Murrica was still in a economic depression, there was a lot of social upheaval and people still remembered the human meatgrinder of WWI.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 04-03-2016, 06:35 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 395
Thanks 733
Default

One note - a lot more talk about guns than God on this thread.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 04-03-2016, 06:42 AM
Binx B
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, if I had a choice, that would be it.

Last edited by Binx B; 04-03-2016 at 07:22 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 04-03-2016, 07:12 AM
Prodigalson's Avatar
Prodigalson (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Humboldt Co., CA
Posts: 2,405
Thanks: 269
Thanks 514
Default

Actually, I don't think the OP was about gods or guns, but about our willingness to jump into an argument whilst not knowing all the answers, our intractability in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and the futility of it all anyway.
__________________
Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Prodigalson For This Useful Post:
Mohican (04-03-2016)
Reply

  WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Guns and Booze MJ Preston Non-Fiction 1 09-08-2010 03:30 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:00 PM.

vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.