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UK in the EU

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  #1  
Old 03-24-2016, 12:42 AM
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Default UK in the EU


Is Britain better off in the European Union? Does it protect our economy and safeguard our freedoms, or are we losing our national identity by being absorbed into an increasingly undemocratic superstate?

Dave says stay. Nige says go. Who is right?

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Old 03-24-2016, 04:00 AM
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Nige is the correct one. Dave is a twat and Merkel is Satan in a skirt.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:09 AM
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Nigel is a clown. A scary dangerous one.

All politicians are twats.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:34 AM
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I think that there's a short term answer and a long term one.

In the short term my answer is that there are undeniable financial benefits to membership of the EU and that if the European Court of Human Rights is a threat to our sovereignty, then it's a necessary one, because the inadequacy of our own leading legal minds when it comes to human rights means we need the extra backstop.

However, in the long term my answer is that the EU direction of travel is towards a European superstate along the US model. They want to have a US-style shared currency and shared central bank, US-style state assemblies administering local law, but subject to a US-style supergovernment. Their answer to problems with the union is ever-closer union. And that's unacceptable to the British mindset.

Therefore in my mind the question is not "shall we stay in?" but "when would it be best for us to leave?" My preferred answer is "not yet". But if we vote no in the next referendum then our politicians are likely not to give us another vote until the next crisis at which time the situation will, undoubtedly, be worse.

Also, as a secondary consideration, I wish to do as much damage as I humanly can to Dave the Piglover, his chum Gideon and their associated shower from Eton.

Therefore in the referendum on 23rd June, I intend to vote to leave the EU. I shall incidentally be placing that vote in my own ballot box, as I will have the honour to be the Presiding Officer for my ward.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:50 AM
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NS - I wish I could rebut your comments on the U.S. superstate, but alas, I can not.


This is reason enough to leave the EU: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...iewpoints.html
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:55 AM
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Turning over sovereignty because you don't think you can deal with your own issues might create a temporary fix but long term gets worse.

The enlightenment wasn't , and the HobbeLockian Leviathan has shown that it is not amenable to small free states with free thinkers.

Your Magna Carta determining what's best for Brits don't mean doodly squat to the EU.
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
This is reason enough to leave the EU: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...iewpoints.html
The Daily Mail is one of the prime shit-stirrers of the EU pot, and they, like too many other people, focus on the wrong things.

The prime movers in the 'out' campaign, and the likely prime voters for 'out' don't really know or care too much about the potential benefits or pitfalls of EU membership but pin almost everything on one issue: immigration.

Or to put it another way, bloody foreigners coming over here, stealing our jobs, claiming our benefits, living in our homes, fucking our women... and its all bollocks.

They do not acknowledge that immigrant labour has not affected unemployment, which is at its lowest point for years, or that immigrant labour was a factor in our recovery from the recession, that they contribute by paying taxes, etc.

There is a widely held idea that all immigrants are spongers and scroungers. But in all honesty, how many of us would leave everything behind, risk life and limb travelling across an inhospitable Europe, just so we could flip burgers or clean toilets?
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:14 AM
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So all forms of immigration are Sunshine, Lollipops and Unicorn farts in the UK? No issues? No "no go" zones anyplace?
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:47 AM
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It's hard to explain how much contempt British people have for the Murdoch Press ---- you'd need to have followed the phone-hacking scandal and the sordid circumstances in which the News of the World ceased trading. Rupert Murdoch and his son have actually been hauled in front of the British parliament to explain themselves. Certainly a Daily Mail link will convince very few British people indeed, because we're largely of the view that any relationship between a Daily Mail story and the truth is purely coincidental. That rag prints whatever their so-called journalists can dream up in their lunch breaks, and they routinely pay out colossal libel payments to prove it.

To give you an idea, even Wikipedia has the Daily Mail on their list of sources they think are too unreliable to use.

Think of it as the attitude of Breitbart.com or Fox News combined with the factual reliability of, err, your average Marvel comic.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
So all forms of immigration are Sunshine, Lollipops and Unicorn farts in the UK? No issues? No "no go" zones anyplace?
What is this US fascination with "no go" zones? The only thing I really know about "no go" zones is that an American called Steven Emerson described the city of Birmingham as a no go zone for non-Muslims, on Fox News, in 2015, much to the amusement of, errr, absolutely everyone who's ever been anywhere near Birmingham. There's now a Twitter feed for #FoxNewsFacts which I occasionally read when I feel a certain lack of sarcasm in my life.

There are certainly issues with immigration, but I think the tensions are radically different here.

Firstly, if there really are people who feel their jobs are threatened by someone who got here hiding in the back of a lorry and has entered this country with no checkable work history, no verifiable qualifications and a limited knowledge of English ---- then those people must be really crap human beings and should be taking a long hard look in the mirror.

Secondly, we rely on Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans coming here because we don't train enough key personnel such as nurses in our own schools and colleges, and they do like to come over and earn triple what they'd earn in their home countries.

(I had a conversation with an Eastern European woman yesterday. She'd come over to work as a cleaner, mopping hospital floors clean of the various fluids and substances which get spilled there. Before that, she'd spent six years working for the UN and before that she'd taken a degree which had something to do with population geography, but being floor-mopper on minimum wage in the UK was the most she'd ever earned...)
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
It's hard to explain how much contempt British people have for the Murdoch Press ---- you'd need to have followed the phone-hacking scandal and the sordid circumstances in which the News of the World ceased trading. Rupert Murdoch and his son have actually been hauled in front of the British parliament to explain themselves. Certainly a Daily Mail link will convince very few British people indeed, because we're largely of the view that any relationship between a Daily Mail story and the truth is purely coincidental. That rag prints whatever their so-called journalists can dream up in their lunch breaks, and they routinely pay out colossal libel payments to prove it.

To give you an idea, even Wikipedia has the Daily Mail on their list of sources they think are too unreliable to use.

Think of it as the attitude of Breitbart.com or Fox News combined with the factual reliability of, err, your average Marvel comic.
You are right about the Mail, except it is not owned by Murdoch but Jonathan Harmsworth, 4th Viscount Rothermere. Founded by his forebear, the first Viscount Rothermere, a fascist sympathiser. Judging by its xenophobic output nothing much as changed.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
So all forms of immigration are Sunshine, Lollipops and Unicorn farts in the UK? No issues? No "no go" zones anyplace?
I can only echo what NS said about no go zones and the Daily Mail.

Personally I'm proud to live in a country where people are willing to give up their former lives, give everything they own and risk their lives so they can come here.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:41 PM
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How do you U.K.dians view Merkel?
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
How do you U.K.dians view Merkel?
Hitler in heels. She has managed to dominate Europe where he failed.
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Old 04-06-2016, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Hitler in heels. She has managed to dominate Europe where he failed.
They do share the same taste in lipstick, right?
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:30 AM
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Ha! I hear he preferred peach, while she's a scarlet. :-)
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
How do you U.K.dians view Merkel?
She presides over the worlds 4th largest ecomony and she does it inclusively, social care is a high priority in Germany and many world leaders coud learn from her.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Hitler in heels. She has managed to dominate Europe where he failed.
That's a totally ignorant thing to say. Its sexist (how many other world leaders do you identify by their footwear? Is Obama the nigger in loafers?) and any form of comparison with Hitler is inaccurate in the extreme and really stupid.

And Mohican don't encourage him.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post

And Mohican don't encourage him.
Him is a her.

Maybe you should work on your sense of humour.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
She presides over the worlds 4th largest ecomony and she does it inclusively, social care is a high priority in Germany and many world leaders coud learn from her.
We'll just agree to disagree on H.I.H. ......
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
....... any form of comparison with Hitler is inaccurate in the extreme and really stupid.
True. Because deep down in Hitlers evil black heart he thought of his nation first? No, I guess I can't say that because Hitler was an Austrian carpetbagging as a German....

And inclusive of what, and why do you think inclusion is a good thing?
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
And inclusive of what, and why do you think inclusion is a good thing?
Inclusion has to be a good thing. we are all equal. we should all have the same access to the law, we should all have a voice, we should all share the same basic rights.

Are you saying exclusion is better? Are you happy to comdemn segments of the cummuunity to the underclass because of whatever arbitrary prejudice is fashionable this week?
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:06 AM
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1. We are not all equal.
2. Everyone should have the same access to justice.
3. Yes we should all have a voice.
4. Yes, we should all share some basic rights.
5. Exclusion can be better.
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Old 04-13-2016, 09:54 AM
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1. In what way? We are all born equal and equally without any choice of parent. Life limits our choices (for some of us) but we are, surely (you're a man of faith) all equal in the eyes of God?

5. Why?
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
1. In what way? We are all born equal and equally without any choice of parent. Life limits our choices (for some of us) but we are, surely (you're a man of faith) all equal in the eyes of God?

5. Why?
Your #1 statement doesn't work as an if/then. No, we don't have a choice of our parents, unless you have access to a time machine. But people are not born equal.

Are we equal in the eyes of God - Two part answer
1a. A broad answer is that all people can achieve salvation. So that the gift of eternal life / life in heaven is offered to all.
1b. God does not view all people as born equal. God gives more to some people, and in return expects more. This is stated directly, and also in the parable of the talents.

5. Why? There is a whole gamut of reasons starting with faith, going on to issues of what is valued, the lifestyles people want to live and down to some people just value kin or want to live by themselves.
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Old 04-14-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Your #1 statement doesn't work as an if/then. No, we don't have a choice of our parents, unless you have access to a time machine. But people are not born equal.

Are we equal in the eyes of God - Two part answer
1a. A broad answer is that all people can achieve salvation. So that the gift of eternal life / life in heaven is offered to all.
1b. God does not view all people as born equal. God gives more to some people, and in return expects more. This is stated directly, and also in the parable of the talents.

5. Why? There is a whole gamut of reasons starting with faith, going on to issues of what is valued, the lifestyles people want to live and down to some people just value kin or want to live by themselves.
A friend of mine, who chooses to travel under the pseudonym Adelbert Waldron (interesting choice, that) takes a much more stark view:

AdelbertWaldron: I'd just prefer that people who can't live together anymore to simply live apart. There's no reason to pretend that the fissure in values between the center of the country and the liberal cities is a shallow one. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. Though given what's at stake, I can't see the easy way being the possible way.
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Old 04-14-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Maybe you should work on your sense of humour.
It's humorous because:

A) Heels and Hitler both start with an "H."

B) It's Germany!

Sidesplitting.

A lot of Europeans, especially the Greeks, whose economy is in the toilet, resent the Germans and have an understandable if somewhat irrational fear of a strong Germany. But the Hitler comparisons being made are totally knee-jerk, without basis and designed mostly to stir people up. And yes, they are kind of stupid. Germany is dominating by default.

I like a good Hitler/Nazi joke as much as the next guy, but minus the funny, which usually comes from an element of truth or irony and at least a dash of cleverness, they're just lame and offensive—especially when they are at someone's expense who doesn't deserve the comparison.

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Old 04-14-2016, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Binx B View Post
It's humorous because:

A) Heels and Hitler both start with an "H."

B) It's Germany!

Sidesplitting.

A lot of Europeans, especially the Greeks, whose economy is in the toilet, resent the Germans and have an understandable if somewhat irrational fear of a strong Germany. But the Hitler comparisons being made are totally knee-jerk, without basis and designed mostly to stir people up. And yes, they are kind of stupid. Germany is dominating by default.

I like a good Hitler/Nazi joke as much as the next guy, but minus the funny, which usually comes from an element of truth or irony and at least a dash of cleverness, they're just lame and offensive—especially when they are at someone's expense who doesn't deserve the comparison.
Gosh. And it only took you six days to come up with that. Impressive.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:33 PM
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Judging from that, maybe you should try working six days on your comments. It couldn't hurt.
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:15 PM
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I think it probably took tart that long to come up with hitler in heels. His general comments, examined collectively, suggest an intellect somewhere between primordial slime and Neanderthal.
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