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Gods and Guns

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  #1  
Old 03-23-2016, 04:39 AM
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Provocative, innit!

But lets not discuss them, but why there is no point discussing them.

There will always be those who hold opinion A, and those who believe B to be true.

We can throw statistics at each other and shout and pontificate but after 10 pages of arguments nobody will think any differently but we will have pissed each other off and somebody will probably get banned.

So why are we as people so intractable, so unwilling to accept that our opinion may not be the right one, but still so willing to join in the bunfight, knowing that the result will be a big fat nothing?

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Old 03-23-2016, 06:06 AM
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gods and guns
I think one must start by
defining what each actually mean, their purpose and role in society.
attempt to link them and see if they relate
and
if they fail then one must be put to rest and the other left to prosper


so any takers??
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:54 AM
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Once upon a time I bought a buffalo rifle.

I was asked why?

All I know is that since I've had a buffalo rifle, I have had no issues with buffalo or bison in my vegetable garden......
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:47 AM
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Did you before?
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:43 AM
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It depends on who is telling the story...
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:57 PM
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Wyf - where do you want this thread/topic to go?

Do you want to convince me to not believe in God?

Do you want to convince me that guns, or personal ownership of guns are bad?

Have you ever shot a gun?

Would you like to shoot a gun?
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Old 03-23-2016, 02:18 PM
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I'm sticking to my guns on gods.

When will people figure out that it is the person that kills? The hand. The finger (trigger). Geeze..
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Wyf - where do you want this thread/topic to go?
I want to know why people can be so intractable on certain topics. Why will it be impossible for me to convince you that god doesn't exist, and that guns are bad? Why will it be impossible for you to convince me that God is real?

It's not about the subject matter, its about the tenacity of belief.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Do you want to convince me to not believe in God?

Do you want to convince me that guns, or personal ownership of guns are bad?
No, I want to know why it would be impossible for you to do so.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Have you ever shot a gun?

Would you like to shoot a gun?
Yes I have, a variety, on a range in Holland owned by Hells Angels many years ago. It was an exhilarating and unique experience but I still wouldn't want to own a gun.
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:11 PM
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The common taxpayer should never lay down his or her gun! If your corrupt government wants to confiscate the ammo it can't be for a peaceful movement. I call BS.

I say those weasels lay down their guns first, then we'll talk.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:34 PM
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If a person reads this he can easily be caught in a thought that he is reading an article from the Wild west era,hundreds of years ago...
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:01 AM
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Ah, yes. The world was much simpler in the wild west. People said what they felt. Hell, the words "politically correct" didn't exist yet.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
The common taxpayer should never lay down his or her gun! If your corrupt government wants to confiscate the ammo it can't be for a peaceful movement. I call BS.

I say those weasels lay down their guns first, then we'll talk.
What do ordinary Americans make of the Waco massacre? Wasn't that about ordinary citizens defending their right to have guns? I'm genuinely curious about how that is perceived.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
What do ordinary Americans make of the Waco massacre? Wasn't that about ordinary citizens defending their right to have guns? I'm genuinely curious about how that is perceived.
I have no idea what "the ordinary American thinks".

My opinion is that certain alphabet agencies wanted to make a "made for TV" splash and it backfired a bit.

The Sheriff of that particular county told the Feds on more than one occasion that whenever he has a question for Koresh he picked up phone, called him and Koresh came in to see him. I'd put it at 95% likelyhood that if the Feds wanted to talk to Koresh they could have gotten a warrant, had Koresh come to the local Sheriff's office to chat, and served a warrant there.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:52 AM
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What's an alphabet agency?
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:20 AM
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FBI
ATF (now bATFe)
DEA
CIA

Something Federal where they are called so much by their initials that it becomes their name....

And perhaps the original meaning behind their initialized titles becomes secondary
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:35 AM
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Made for TV splash? Are you being serious?

I must confess I find Waco a perplexing mystery as it was on the face of it so over the top a reaction to a minor firearm infringement. Wholesale slaughter of families seems an odd way to keep society safer. But since it happened I can't really condemn Americans for wanting firearms to defend themselves from their government.

We don't get the whole story from our media, of course. Which is why I wondered how it was viewed from your side of the pond. Sorry to imply you were an ordinary American, I'm sure you are extraordinary in every way.
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:51 AM
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I think there as a lot of coordination between Federal Agencies and the "News Media".

Ruby Ridge, which happened late in George Bush I's term was fairly quiet. It made more news afterwards than it did at the time it happened.

By Contrast, the raid on the Branch Davidian's Mount Carmel compound had 24/7 news coverage almost immediately.

So someone had to pick up the phone and give directions to the Branch Davidian compound and say "Hey, we're having this really big raid, it'll be cool. Come out and film it for us!".
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:33 PM
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The media!? American media? Hah! Most of it pure propaganda trash . . . a brainwashing technique, if you will.

Total control and dependence upon the American government is only a few confiscated guns away, they think. It will never happen. Once the people snap out of their foggy, thoughts induced coma there might be hell to pay!

*The above opinion is purely an.. well, an opinionated opinion. It does NOT reflect my views of any member at the Beat or guests perusing.*
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:03 PM
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David Koresh was a douche-bag, but the killing of all those people (many innocent), was horrific. I hope the Feds learned some lessons there. I think they did, because the recent Bundy standoff ended without a lot of shooting. Yes, that one guy got shot, and I hear the federal agents who shot him are under investigation now. I'm sure nothing will happen to the agents, but at least there are some questions being raised.

We are not going to take guns away from American citizens. We just aren't.

Capitalism is defended by individuals who demand—by force if necessary—their rights.

I'm not a constitutionalist. I think that document is out-dated and has been stretched in many different ways to justify a whole bunch of ugly. I'd leave the country, but where else is better? I mean, really? I have a good friend who lives in Berlin. On a recent trip out here, he expressed what a safe comfortable life he lives there. The problem (according to him) is its too safe. It keeps people from 'driving to the basket' as it were. If you live in the US, it's the only way to get ahead.

I think once we perfect the separation of church and state, we'll tune the system finer. We had a huge setback with the McCarthy fight against godless communism, (and Islam v Jesus is tempting the zealots), but religion in politics is dying slowly. Pretty soon our president will not have to say: God bless America, to get elected.
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:54 AM
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I wouldn't say the Constitution is outdated. The problem is in the people, so any charter used by corrupt or vacillating people will be meaningless.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post

I think once we perfect the separation of church and state, we'll tune the system finer. We had a huge setback with the McCarthy fight against godless communism, (and Islam v Jesus is tempting the zealots), but religion in politics is dying slowly. Pretty soon our president will not have to say: God bless America, to get elected.
The constitution originally had nothing mentioning religion - The first ten amendments came a bit later, and only because several states were talking about bailing out if there was no Bill of Rights.

The first amendment says nothing about separation of Church and State. It says that the Congress could not establish a religion, or suppress religions.

And then if you go to the 10th and you find if it's not mentioned in the Charter, it's left to the states and people.

The majority of original States had state chartered religions, and the 1st amendment did not affect that in any way. States having official religions lasted long after the first amendment State chartered religions died off very gradually- with Virginia (via Thomas Jefferson) taking the lead. I'd say that Jefferson was against the Virginia Church as much for being an increasing system of patronage than from any freedom of religion quandary but that of course is just my opinion.

The "Constitutional Separation of Church and State" came from a virulently anti Catholic Supreme Court Justice - Hugo Black - who was at one time a member of the KKK.

Separation of Church and state aint there through legislation, but by twisted judicial fiat led by a very evil man.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
I can't really condemn Americans for wanting firearms to defend themselves from their government.
Firearms won't do that. Can never do that. They will, potentially, enable Americans to defend themselves from the police or the FBI for a short time. But not against the US military. That's a bunch of NRA members, hobbyists and target shooting enthusiasts on one side, against a military force that receives more investment than the militaries of every other nation on Earth put together on the other. The US military can stand well beyond the range of any rifle and rain down death from above ---- whether they need to obliterate an entire town with bombs or rockets or artillery fire, or take out one building with laser precision, makes no difference. The US government has the capacity to do those things and no rifle or handgun can interfere with them at all.

In all Western democracies everywhere, armed resistance against the government can only succeed if the military refuses to intervene. And if the military refuses to intervene, then any substantial armed uprising can't fail. This applies irrespective of whether the "armed resistance" is equipped with machineguns or sticks and stones.

Any pretence to the contrary is self-delusion.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I wouldn't say the Constitution is outdated. The problem is in the people, so any charter used by corrupt or vacillating people will be meaningless.


We will have to differ on the outdated. The arguable point for me in this post is the belief that the problem with the constitution is a corrupt and vacillating citizenry, unable or unwilling to make it work. Well, welcome to the human race. It has always been so, and always will be. There will always be the mixture of people on all sides of the issues, but if you connect people (and the Internet has done a pretty good job of doing that) the vast majority of us will end up somewhere in the middle. Give everyone enough food and shelter, educate them, fix them when they are sick or broken (if we can), and provide positive ways for the people to be productive, and I believe that most of the fringe arguments will just be entertainment. The way to evolve beyond the law of the jungle and survival of the fittest is just to allow people to be human.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
The constitution originally had nothing mentioning religion - The first ten amendments came a bit later, and only because several states were talking about bailing out if there was no Bill of Rights.

The first amendment says nothing about separation of Church and State. It says that the Congress could not establish a religion, or suppress religions.

And then if you go to the 10th and you find if it's not mentioned in the Charter, it's left to the states and people.

The majority of original States had state chartered religions, and the 1st amendment did not affect that in any way. States having official religions lasted long after the first amendment State chartered religions died off very gradually- with Virginia (via Thomas Jefferson) taking the lead. I'd say that Jefferson was against the Virginia Church as much for being an increasing system of patronage than from any freedom of religion quandary but that of course is just my opinion.

The "Constitutional Separation of Church and State" came from a virulently anti Catholic Supreme Court Justice - Hugo Black - who was at one time a member of the KKK.

Separation of Church and state aint there through legislation, but by twisted judicial fiat led by a very evil man.


I don't really care how separation of church and state came about. Yes, yes, many screwed up people did lots of things that were bad. They do and did in any system we can and have designed. When you connect people, educate them, and give them enough food and meaningful purpose, religion and all other divisive 'systems' start to fail. Not because we outlaw them or their particular prejudices, but because (generally) happy satisfied people aren't interested (nor do they find it necessary) to fight with each other. Now, there will always be 'bad guys' in some form or other, and those will have to be dealt with, but the vast majority will not be. Well fed people with a home and a job don't rob liquor stores or want to take over other countries.

I think there will be lots of strife in the future, but if we can keep the radicals from blowing up the planet, it will come.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:01 PM
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Against a military force that receives more investment than the militaries of every other nation on Earth put together on the other. The US military can stand well beyond the range of any rifle and rain down death from above ---- whether they need to obliterate an entire town with bombs or rockets or artillery fire, or take out one building with laser precision, makes no difference.
Good point, but what's really weird is that this force, backed by NATO's power, can't defeat a bunch of redneck radical Islamists operating from Toyota pickups. It's mindboggling.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
Good point, but what's really weird is that this force, backed by NATO's power, can't defeat a bunch of redneck radical Islamists operating from Toyota pickups. It's mindboggling.
It can, though. It totally can. The commanders won't accept civilian casualties so they won't issue the necessary orders, but the capability is there. Annoy the politicians enough and it could be used.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bagit View Post
Good point, but what's really weird is that this force, backed by NATO's power, can't defeat a bunch of redneck radical Islamists operating from Toyota pickups. It's mindboggling.


If there was political will, or they had something we needed, it would be over in a few days. We aren't trying to take out ISIS. The countries they occupy have nothing we want that we don't already have.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:50 PM
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It's not good for the arms business to win a war quickly.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
We will have to differ on the outdated. The arguable point for me in this post is the belief that the problem with the constitution is a corrupt and vacillating citizenry, unable or unwilling to make it work. Well, welcome to the human race. It has always been so, and always will be. There will always be the mixture of people on all sides of the issues, but if you connect people (and the Internet has done a pretty good job of doing that) the vast majority of us will end up somewhere in the middle. Give everyone enough food and shelter, educate them, fix them when they are sick or broken (if we can), and provide positive ways for the people to be productive, and I believe that most of the fringe arguments will just be entertainment. The way to evolve beyond the law of the jungle and survival of the fittest is just to allow people to be human.
Read the Constitution - it's a charter of government. What renders it unusable is scale. and dishonesty, incompetence and willingness for people to usurp power not granted by the charter.
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Read the Constitution - it's a charter of government. What renders it unusable is scale. and dishonesty, incompetence and willingness for people to usurp power not granted by the charter.


My point was any clearly thought out charter or plan or system will work if we can just get those stupid, or lazy, or incompetent, or willfully defiant members of our society to comply with its conditions. But... we can't. We never could. So now what?

We could kill or imprison all the non-compliant. Or, we could understand and fully embrace the messiness.
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