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Age of consent.

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  #1  
Old 04-22-2016, 05:27 AM
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Default Age of consent.


Can, worms, worms, can.

Opinions?

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Old 04-22-2016, 05:42 AM
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Wyf - Are we talking

Legal?

Physical/Emotional?

Spiritual?

And is the age of consent for sexual intercourse between two apparently Human Beings?

The Consent to go to war or do other dangerous things?
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Old 04-22-2016, 06:43 AM
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I'm assuming you mean legal.

When it comes to sex, you have to have one. Of course, not everyone will agree on an age or consequences for offenders, but we have to do our best to protect children who aren't ready or capable of making the decision to be sexually active.

Vague enough for you?

As far as alcohol and tobacco and in now in some states, weed, kids will gets there hands on them regardless, but we need to make the effort to at least make it more difficult.

Sorry, I guess none of that really amounts to any quantity of uncanned worms.
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:03 AM
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:55 AM
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I think this is a question about being able to make rational decisions, which means being able to weigh consequences and come to an informed choice. And as Mohican says, that's partly a legal thing but also partly about cognition. (I don't agree with Mohican that it has anything to do with spirituality; but then I'm an atheist and I don't recognise "spirituality" as a term with any real meaning.)

Our understanding of mental capacity has come a long way. I'll give you the British version because I don't know any other.

There have been people without mental capacity forever, of course, but the law didn't recognise their existence until the Madhouses Act of 1774. (Before that Act, you could have someone locked away in a madhouse if you could afford to pay the madhouse. They would then lock up your "insane" relative and they would have no right of appeal. Horrific.)

The law then recognised that some people could not be held responsible for their actions in Court (Criminal Lunatics Act 1800), that people could lack capacity because of a medical condition (Lunacy Act 1845), and that people could lack capacity because of a developmental delay (Idiots Act 1886). The Idiots Act was the moment when the law distinguished between madness and ignorance.

I should stop here and explain that these were not pejoratives. "Lunatic" and "idiot" were medical terms in those days. "Idiot" meant someone with a mental age of 3 or less. If they had a mental age of 3 to 7 they were an "imbecile", and someone with a mental age of 7 to 10 was called a "moron". When they became insults, successor terms were invented ("retard", "retarded"), and when they became insults we started to talk about learning disabilities. This is called the euphemism treadmill and it's a rich source of language.

After this the law started to recognise children as a class of beings in need of special protection, in the Children Act 1908. The Children and Young Persons' Act 1933 set the age of criminal responsibility at 8 years old, the minimum age for a worker at 14, and the minimum age of 18 before you could be executed.

But despite this slow development of our modern concepts of mental capacity, there has, almost since time immemorial, been a horror of men who have sex with girl children. Sex with a "maiden" ---- being defined in case law as a girl under 12 ---- was made an offence in the Rape Act 1275.

In my view there is no single age of consent. One person might have all the knowledge, understanding and maturity to consent to sex at a much younger age than another; and if a fourteen year old does choose to have sex, there's a big difference between the amount of consent involved in having sex with another fourteen year old and the amount of consent involved in having sex with mum's boyfriend who's 43.
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
In my view there is no single age of consent.
That's probably just about everyone's view. Of course somebody had to say it.

But as a practical matter, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. You've got to start somewhere, so it's necessary to pick one. And that doesn't preclude a lesser penalty or none at all if the people involved are closer in age.

In some states in the U.S., they've at least made an attempt to do that, but the penalties for an older teen having sex with a younger one are generally too harsh, in my opinion.

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Old 04-22-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Binx B View Post
You've got to start somewhere, so it's necessary to pick one.
You could pick several, actually.

Be it enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

1. That a girl in possession of a hot boyfriend, and desiring that the same shall not dump her, may do the following acts:-
a. Not earlier than her 12th birthday, kiss him about the mouth or face;
b. Not earlier than her 13th birthday, show him her nipples;
c. Not earlier than her 14th birthday, give him a tug...
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Old 04-22-2016, 01:00 PM
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Yeah, well, that's it for now. I have a girl who just turned 13, so I don't know if I really want to think about this any more than I have to.
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Old 04-22-2016, 01:31 PM
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Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. You poor thing.

Yes, so as I was saying, the age of consent should be at least 37, and only within a stable relationship where any and all ladies involved in the act have written permission slips from their fathers.
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2016, 01:58 PM
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From what I've seen so far and by all accounts, she's a cautious and thoughtful and young lady. Thank goodness she takes after her mother.

Although some might question some of her mother's choices...
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:44 PM
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And what about when it's the male who is under age and the woman who is older? Most boys dream of this scenario, but are there long-term negative effects? Should there be stronger attempts to ferret out such cases and prosecute the female perpetrators? Should counseling and 're-education' be provided for the boys, so that they can understand that, no matter how much they enjoyed it, they are a victim and the MILF they hold such fond memories of is a monster who should spend the rest of her life in prison?

Don't boys have a right to an innocent childhood? Who's standing up for their rights? When an grown woman takes the virginity of an underage boy, and a child results, should the boy be charged for the upkeep of that child, while the woman goes unpunished? What if the child was conceived through subterfuge? Is it reasonable to assume that a boy would see through a grown woman's deceit and be able to prevent it? Since the pregnancy came about as the result of an illegal and dishonest action on the part of the woman, should the boy have the right to insist that the pregnancy be terminated?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:43 AM
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Mohican, I'm talking about the age where young folk can legally consent to sex.

Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
In my view there is no single age of consent. One person might have all the knowledge, understanding and maturity to consent to sex at a much younger age than another; and if a fourteen year old does choose to have sex, there's a big difference between the amount of consent involved in having sex with another fourteen year old and the amount of consent involved in having sex with mum's boyfriend who's 43.
This is kind of where I was getting at and its interesting that - as above - it all seems geared towards protecting the female (which is probably right, knowing what horny, hormone driven monsters young men can be!).

The key thing, as I think Binx said, is consent, and one's ability to give it in a considered way.

People need educating. Girls in particular need to learn that the male is naturally predatory and that if a boy ever says "You would if you really loved me" then he should be told to take a running jump.
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
And what about when it's the male who is under age and the woman who is older?
Difficult, isn't it? Yes, they are predators, just the same as a man preying on a young girl. Again consent has to be a part of it - informed consent, without persuasion or coercion.

And what about women who prey on girls, or men on boys?

As to the harm it causes, it varies. I suspect it's less for boys (seduced by older women) because about the only thing that occupies their minds is putting their penises somewhere warm and moist.

But I don't think we should minimise it. I have worked with a lot of abuse victims and they all, without exception, carry scars on the inside. Boys are more prone to suicide. Girls more likely to have eating disorders and self harm.

For me its messed up my ability to form relationships and I still have trust issues. I view sex as an enjoyable physical activity, but not an intimate one. Complicated. Transactional sex. Fucked up.
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Old 04-23-2016, 01:24 AM
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But what about the grown woman who takes advantage of a young boy's natural predatory instincts to get her own rocks off? Couldn't it be said that, as he is too young to make rational choices, that the burden would be even more on the woman, knowing how men are and knowing that the ability to curb those urges doesn't exist in an under-age boy?

And who says women can't be horny, hormone-driven monsters? Hell, I've been stalked, hounded...

Or maybe I'm just that damned good looking.

But, at any rate, I don't think the age of consent is geared towards the young men as much as the old lechers who were considered prime marriageable material for a pre-pubescent girl, as long as they had money, as recently as 100 years ago.

Daughters used to be married off as early as possible. Twelve to fourteen wasn't unusual, and a girl was an 'old maid' at sixteen. A well-established man in his thirties or forties was much preferred over a young buck just starting out, probably because there was less chance of the young couple ending up penniless and moving back in with the folks.

Boys were considered men at fourteen, able to handle a gun or a team of horses (or the wheel of a truck, when motorized vehicles took over), but most men wouldn't want a fourteen-year-old son-in-law, even if he was two years older than his wife. So it was common to see men twenty to thirty years older than their teen-aged wives.

Then, somewhere along the line, it was decided that women should have their sexual freedom, just as it was decided that no woman could think on their own well enough to know who she wanted to fuck, until she was eighteen. And fashion and styles enabled fourteen-year-old girls to pass easily as being four or more years older than they were.

So, what happened, in the last hundred years, to change a forty-year-old man with a fifteen-year-old girl from a solid member of the community who had chosen well for a wife, to a criminal, the lowest of the low, a dirty, filthy, rotten child molester?

I don't know. Do you?
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Old 04-23-2016, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post

So, what happened, in the last hundred years, to change a forty-year-old man with a fifteen-year-old girl from a solid member of the community who had chosen well for a wife, to a criminal, the lowest of the low, a dirty, filthy, rotten child molester?

I don't know. Do you?
My theory on this is, at least for the majority of States in the United States:
1. The rapid change from rural to urban, and from agrarian to industrial created a need, or people created a perceived need to change from eight years of education to the K-12 system we now had.

2. At the same time there was a big push to turn women into voters or potential voters. The nineteenth amendment was ratified and women became voters.

3. At this point, both boys and girls were expected to participate in K-12 education.
Locally, the first K-12 school was instituted in 1926.

4. The typical age of someone that is graduating from grade 12 is 18. (24 in Arkansas and 25 in Upstate New York) To make sure that young ladies were graduating grade 12, and graduating without a bun in the oven the legal age of consent was changed to 18.

In sum, the drive for industrialization, and students with an education tailored toward that end created a system where it was determined "best" for young people to be in school for 13 years, and in order for that to happen adult men could not target young ladies until they graduated from high school.

Starting in the 1990s (or thereabouts) some of the states started to blur these lines a bit. Where it once was a clear cut 18 years old, there are places where 16 year olds are once again fair game for adults, but with 16 as the age of consent a seventeen year old having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend can attain sex offender status for life.......

I think eighteen is a good place to leave this legal age of consent. If you have laws that have these types of ramifications they should be as clear and simple as possible.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
So, what happened, in the last hundred years, to change a forty-year-old man with a fifteen-year-old girl from a solid member of the community who had chosen well for a wife, to a criminal, the lowest of the low, a dirty, filthy, rotten child molester?
Maybe because when women began to determine they should have a say in things and what might be best from them, which probably included not automatically becoming a maid and breeding vessel at 15, then the only people who would disregard or interfere with that would be men who are only interested in their own gratification and sexual predilections, in other words the "lowest of the low...etc. etc."

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Old 04-23-2016, 09:03 AM
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I have, somewhere on my hard drive, a TV script about a female teacher who's in love with one of her male pupils. I think that of all my scripts, it's the one that would be technically easiest and cheapest to make, and also the one that's least likely ever to be made because of its subject matter.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:20 PM
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Just a second, please . . . now, I know for a fact I was seduced at least a couple of times in my youth by similar aged teen females wanting to play tugOwar or worse.

Yes, I'd say young men are more aggressive as a whole, but the girls can be naughty too.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Binx B View Post
Maybe because when women began to determine they should have a say in things and what might be best from them, which probably included not automatically becoming a maid and breeding vessel at 15...
So it's the women who have driven the change? That's funny -- unless you're talking about an actual child (pre-pubescent), it's been my observation that men get more upset about it than women. Jealousy, maybe.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
My theory on this is, at least for the majority of States in the United States:

...a perceived need to change from eight years of education to the K-12 system...

...a big push to turn women into voters or potential voters...

....To make sure that young ladies were graduating grade 12, and graduating without a bun in the oven the legal age of consent was changed to 18.

In sum, the drive for industrialization, and students with an education tailored toward that end created a system where it was determined "best" for young people to be in school for 13 years, and in order for that to happen adult men could not target young ladies until they graduated from high school.
So it's not a moral issue. It's basically a way for industry to ensure that there are plenty of good little workers coming up, unencumbered by pesky little things like family responsibilities.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I think eighteen is a good place to leave this legal age of consent.
Considering the above, why?

Originally Posted by wyf View Post
As to the harm it causes, it varies. I suspect it's less for boys (seduced by older women) because about the only thing that occupies their minds is putting their penises somewhere warm and moist.
Precisely the reason the burden should be more on the woman to prevent it.


Originally Posted by wyf View Post
But I don't think we should minimise it. I have worked with a lot of abuse victims and they all, without exception, carry scars on the inside. Boys are more prone to suicide. Girls more likely to have eating disorders and self harm.

For me its messed up my ability to form relationships and I still have trust issues. I view sex as an enjoyable physical activity, but not an intimate one. Complicated. Transactional sex. Fucked up.
Don't feel alone.
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Old 04-23-2016, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Non Serviam View Post
I have, somewhere on my hard drive, a TV script about a female teacher who's in love with one of her male pupils. I think that of all my scripts, it's the one that would be technically easiest and cheapest to make, and also the one that's least likely ever to be made because of its subject matter.
Why?

Its actually already been made (at least once) with Kate Blanchet as the seducer. Brilliant film and has a Philip Glass soundtrack.
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Old 04-24-2016, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
So it's the women who have driven the change? That's funny -- unless you're talking about an actual child (pre-pubescent), it's been my observation that men get more upset about it than women. Jealousy, maybe.
When it comes to historical shifts in social patterns and attitudes that happen over the course of a century, I don't put a lot of stock in personal observations.

Don't you think that once women had the opportunity to stay with their families through their teens and get an education that they didn't prefer that to being married off at 15 to an older man?

Not discounting any economic reasons, and I'm not exactly sure how it went down, but I'm guessing that with the rise of the women's rights and suffrage movement in the late 1800's, and with a more complete education, maybe women started to get the idea they might like to have a say in what they do with their lives, like when they would get married and to whom.

And based on you personal observations, do you really think a lot of men would be jealous of a 40 year old man who's married to to 15 year old and that women are generally okay with the idea?

P.S. I don't know for sure that marriage at 15 was all that common anyway. A quick glance at census bureau statics says the median age for first marriage for women in 1890 was 22.

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Old 04-25-2016, 12:33 AM
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Median age doesn't tell you anything. You could have ten ten-year-olds, one twenty-two-year-old and ten eighty-year-olds, and have a median age of 22, which would not be an accurate picture.

I think we're getting off the track here, anyway, as the subject is the age of consent, not marriageable age.

With a little research I found that, nowadays, 16 appears to be the age most places. I think that's more practical, as most kids have lost their virginity by sixteen and technically, statutory rape laws apply even when both parties are underage (although I don't recall ever hearing of a case where both parties were underage and charged with a crime, I suppose it could happen).

Sixteen would keep a lot of kids out of the criminal class for a couple of years.
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Old 04-25-2016, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Binx B View Post
Don't you think that once women had the opportunity to stay with their families through their teens and get an education that they didn't prefer that to being married off at 15 to an older man?
I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't think, historically, what young women might or might not prefer had very little bearing in the choices that men made for them or the laws men made to ensure women were compliant.

Until very recently women have had little or no say in the laws made which dictate their lives, and even now people like Trump think they know more about what's right for women than women do.
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't think, historically, what young women might or might not prefer had very little bearing in the choices that men made for them or the laws men made to ensure women were compliant.

Until very recently women have had little or no say in the laws made which dictate their lives, and even now people like Trump think they know more about what's right for women than women do.
Sure, I knew women didn't even begin have any real choices until the 1960's and 70's. I guess the pill had a lot to do with it. And from what I've seen, not even many women my age or younger really seem to appreciate that.
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:47 PM
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Even from the 60s on, womens choices have been relatively superficial. The biggest liberator was the pill - it allowed us to fuck on equal terms with men - but even that is tempered by male opinion - if you fuck around, you're a stud. If I fuck around, I'm a slut.

The people who form opinions about what is good for women are still mostly men.
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  #26  
Old 04-26-2016, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wyf View Post
Even from the 60s on, womens choices have been relatively superficial.
I'm pretty aware of the ways that women have yet to achieve equality and that it's still mostly men who call the shots. But "superficial" seem like a bit of an overstatement. Women are regularly doing things they never dreamed of doing in the '60's. And I think the women who really went out on a limb and fought for women's rights would probably take exception to that.
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  #27  
Old 04-26-2016, 05:42 AM
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Perhaps wyf means the superficial is in the physical changes because yes, women have a lot more freedom now, but under the surface psychologically, we are still battling male prejudice. Not least of which is the one where men seem to think its still acceptable to discuss women's prospects in life like its any of their business.

Anyway, just a random aside and not intended to annoy anyone or put words in anyone mouth.
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2016, 06:42 AM
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Uh, so men shouldn't be part of the conversation? That seems kind of counterproductive.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:16 AM
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Should it be possible for a man to be a feminist without attracting women's hostility?
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  #30  
Old 04-26-2016, 09:05 AM
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I'd like to answer, but I think I should probably ask for permission first.
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