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  #91  
Old 05-09-2017, 05:18 AM
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Industry self-regulation and independent testing can work -- UL is an example.

Then again, along with other testing companies, they are government approved.

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  #92  
Old 05-09-2017, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Yeah, right. Lol
Not an argument.

What would be the alternative if there wasn't a government, just no food standards? It would be absurd and make no sense.

If I have a supermarket I'm going to want to quality assure my suppliers one way or another. Scandals like Mad Cow cost industries billions, there is a HUGE market incentive to stop it from happening.

And the agencies will have a huge profit motive to make their membership an industry standard. For suppliers who don't conform and don't subject themselves to basic quality assurance checks they will struggle to find buyers who trust them.

As for the subpar standards of the past before the supposed effectiveness of government oversight, we did a lot of silly things in the past, processes improve organically that's indubitable. Is it just because of government that we don't publicly burn bags of cats anymore?

Aside from that shit happens. We all take our chances. Our governments have been running around the globe creating mayhem for centuries. I literally can't think of worse people to do business with, which is why it has to be compulsory. There's an Anarcho-Capitalist maxim, 'good ideas don't require force', for every government function which is in people's interest it will find expression in society without the need for taxation. And whenever the people act against their best interests, they'll have to own their shit, at least we won't be saying 'the government made us do it'.
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  #93  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
In some respects, much as I don't like the idea or some of its more nefarious implications, globalism is the most promising idea out there.
Globalism in the sense of global governance is a terrible, horrifying idea. Making the people in charge further and further away, and reducing what little effect you can have is just bad thinking.

If you want to ex pat, then it really ruins the why of it. Or you can in-patriate yourself, and go with a hardened version of the Anabaptist sects or a hardened Benedict Option.
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  #94  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Not an argument.

What would be the alternative if there wasn't a government, just no food standards? It would be absurd and make no sense.

If I have a supermarket I'm going to want to quality assure my suppliers one way or another. Scandals like Mad Cow cost industries billions, there is a HUGE market incentive to stop it from happening.

And the agencies will have a huge profit motive to make their membership an industry standard. For suppliers who don't conform and don't subject themselves to basic quality assurance checks they will struggle to find buyers who trust them.

As for the subpar standards of the past before the supposed effectiveness of government oversight, we did a lot of silly things in the past, processes improve organically that's indubitable. Is it just because of government that we don't publicly burn bags of cats anymore?

Aside from that shit happens. We all take our chances. Our governments have been running around the globe creating mayhem for centuries. I literally can't think of worse people to do business with, which is why it has to be compulsory. There's an Anarcho-Capitalist maxim, 'good ideas don't require force', for every government function which is in people's interest it will find expression in society without the need for taxation. And whenever the people act against their best interests, they'll have to own their shit, at least we won't be saying 'the government made us do it'.
It would be a lot easier to fix what we have now than tear it all down and hope "someone" picks up the slack. Your whole argument is a lot of silly hypotheticals flying in the face of millennia of history.
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  #95  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
It would be a lot easier to fix what we have now than tear it all down and hope "someone" picks up the slack. Your whole argument is a lot of silly hypotheticals flying in the face of millennia of history.
Not tear anything down really. Just change the way people think.

Once people stop believing that paying tax is a moral duty, that the government is here to protect us, and start believing that we are a bunch of intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers who can work it out without them, and that the non-initiation of force must be held as a primary, then things will change through iteration. People will then focus on diminishing government control rather than crying out for it which is the current paradigm.

Definitely not in our lifetime, some then think it a pointless conversation. I don't really think like that. Monarchy and slavery persisted since the beginning of recorded history and both are more or less finished -- ultimately because something which used to be considered morally acceptable is now not so.
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  #96  
Old 05-10-2017, 02:46 AM
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Monarchies were replaced by other forms of government. Slavery was abolished by governments. At one point, people were essentially forced to change how they thought about things that we now readily accept.

It's not an entirely pointless conversation. There will always be things that could be better performed by private entities. But when you keep pushing it to the extremes, it just becomes absurd.

P.S. And I don't think that "we" are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers." I think that there are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers" among us -- or maybe just cunning, ingenious motherfuckers, and some small percentage of them, probably with sociopathic tendencies, want to be in charge -- and they will find a way to do it, by force if necessary...

Last edited by Myers; 05-10-2017 at 04:18 AM..
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  #97  
Old 05-10-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Monarchies were replaced by other forms of government. Slavery was abolished by governments. At one point, people were essentially forced to change how they thought about things that we now readily accept.

It's not an entirely pointless conversation. There will always be things that could be better performed by private entities. But when you keep pushing it to the extremes, it just becomes absurd.

P.S. And I don't think that "we" are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers." I think that there are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers" among us -- or maybe just cunning, ingenious motherfuckers, and some small percentage of them, probably with sociopathic tendencies, want to be in charge -- and they will find a way to do it, by force if necessary...
The more I examine elected officials, Especially those elected to spots in FedGov the more I am convinced that they are average intellects that are really good at "The Calculus Of Me".

the worst of these are often essentially gigolos. (gigolos, not juggalos) Among these are John Kerry, John McCain, and Paul Ryan.

If I work off "the good man" judgment (and I'll throw in elected chicks, too) I can only think of maybe 5-10 out of 435 elected members of the House, 100 Senators and the President/Vice President.

So does this leave me at BTMFD as a political theory? I have a South African Ex Pat friend warns me that 99% of anyone anywhere are not ready and really suffer in a BTMFD scenario. But I wonder if a reset of some sort is on the horizon. I'm 50-50 on that.

As for the question of anarchy - that is very dependent on the people, their ethics and culture. Some can live in harmony, at least temporarily without people telling them what to do. Others follow the Three Meals rule. I can point out the how different locals, (that were geographically close) reacted different to an anarchy situation in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Some communities along the Gulf in Mississippi, parts of Louisiana and Gulf Coast Texas were hit hard and still worked things out for themselves peacefully. Some of these areas were hit as hard as New Orleans, but the meltdown in New Orleans is what people remember about Hurricane Katrina.
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  #98  
Old 05-10-2017, 11:20 AM
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But I wasn't talking about your average politician -- rather people who come to power in times of crisis or transition.

That could be anyone from George Washington to Roosevelt -- Hitler to Mao.

And the same would likely hold true on a smaller scale, depending on circumstances.

It's not about people who manage to carve out a place for themselves or excel within an existing power structure. I agree -- that doesn't necessarily take much intelligence or savvy. Sometimes it's just about having the right people behind you.

Last edited by Myers; 05-10-2017 at 01:37 PM..
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  #99  
Old 05-10-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Not tear anything down really. Just change the way people think.

Once people stop believing that paying tax is a moral duty, that the government is here to protect us, and start believing that we are a bunch of intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers who can work it out without them, and that the non-initiation of force must be held as a primary, then things will change through iteration. People will then focus on diminishing government control rather than crying out for it which is the current paradigm.
Lol guess you never watched a Trump rally. 😂
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  #100  
Old 05-10-2017, 04:58 PM
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Even internet communists can give you a remotely plausible chain of events that lead up to their version of pure communism, or whatever. Revolution, dictatorship of the proletariat, etc. etc.

With anarcho-capitalists, it's always something like, well, someday everyone will see how this can all work...

Last edited by Myers; 05-10-2017 at 05:01 PM..
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  #101  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by moonpunter View Post
Lol guess you never watched a Trump rally. 😂


Yeah. A few of us could work it out for ourselves with others. The rest are below 100 IQ, and would rather follow like sheep than make their own decisions.

Maybe we should kill the dumb people this time, at the start of the revolution, instead of the intellectuals?
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  #102  
Old 05-11-2017, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Monarchies were replaced by other forms of government. Slavery was abolished by governments. At one point, people were essentially forced to change how they thought about things that we now readily accept.

It's not an entirely pointless conversation. There will always be things that could be better performed by private entities. But when you keep pushing it to the extremes, it just becomes absurd.

P.S. And I don't think that "we" are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers." I think that there are "intelligent ingenuous motherfuckers" among us -- or maybe just cunning, ingenious motherfuckers, and some small percentage of them, probably with sociopathic tendencies, want to be in charge -- and they will find a way to do it, by force if necessary...
I don't think we can say that people were forced to end slavery. I know that sound a little strange when yes slave ships were literally hunted across the seas and those aboard arrested by government decree. But William Wilberforce 'n' co didn't have to start arguing against it. If it wasn't anything to do with consciousness and just some kind of perfect random series of political and economic events I can't see how the institution would have persisted for tens of thousands of years.

Things can only really work if the people involved support, or believe in it, either expressly or tacitly. We got rid of slavery and now it is not in any way a conscionable social norm, so no matter how much the sociopaths might want to be in charge, they couldn't enslave people because who's going to go for it? Statism would have to be in the same category, ie: something which people were so hostile towards that it simply wouldn't be possible to garner any support for it.

Brings me back to ISIS, they're running around trying to create a new state using force as we speak, but they couldn't possibly do it without a great deal of support. If there was no support for Islamic extremism, it's a no go, so yeah it is a case of changing people's minds. Funnily enough when people were arguing for the end of slavery, a whole heap of mad max style dystopian objections would ensue.
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  #103  
Old 05-11-2017, 05:04 AM
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I think it's probable that slavery would have died out -- eventually. But I think that in the southern U.S. at least, it would have gone on for as long as it was economically viable. The mindset that allowed for it persisted for another century. It took laws and the force of government to end it swiftly and altogether. I'm guessing if you were a slave, waiting for public opinion to shift wouldn't have seemed like a very good option.

And while governments certainly do reprehensible things, I think the vast majority of people will continue to believe that they aren't inherently immoral, so when it comes to changing minds, I don't think the comparison to slavery is a very good one.

Otherwise, I think people want to be governed and led. They will always hold out hope that in the just the right measure and with the right people, government can work and function in the their best interest.

We all know that corporations already have a huge influence over government, and that some number of politicians will continue to push for private solutions -- so you could argue that we're already headed in the direction of private entities running everything -- but when it comes to logistics and making it all work at the ground level, the devil is in the details.

If it's all about changing minds, then you need to at least put forth some kind of plausible scenario for a transition -- if it's forced or if it evolves -- and address some of the logistics of things like entirely private police forces and courts etc. -- how they function and compete and who does what or how there can even be anything beyond the veneer of impartiality when profit is the motivation. This is where things tend to remain vague in this discussion. I have a good imagination, but it's not that good.

And we're already bombarded with marketing messages and advertising. Do we really want to live in a world where we have to be sold on practically everything? Because I can't see avoiding that.

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Last edited by Myers; 05-11-2017 at 05:29 AM..
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