WritersBeat.com
 

Go Back   WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table

The Intellectual Table Discussions on political topics, social issues, current affairs, etc.


The Master Through The Times

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-14-2017, 04:26 AM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default The Master Through The Times


I've recently decided to go to college to get a teaching degree and then to teach a course on Shakespeare's influence on American literature (with something of an emphasis on Southern Gothic). The syllabus would be (broadly) as follows:

Macbeth/Sound and the Fury

King Lear/Moby-Dick

Othello/Blood Meridian

Over the course of the year (and maybe the year following) I'll develop the course here.

Mission statement:

If youre not coming to my class diapered in fear of evacuating your bowels at every damn revelation in these books, if your tits arent withering, if the milk in your tits or testes isnt souring at the very thought of bringing children into this godawful charnelhouse of a world, then Im not doing my fucking job. My job isnt just to get you nescient cocksuckers to think. Its to show you the flensed hides of your enemies and antecessors and say this also is you: The sacrifice on the altar is the priest holding the knife.

(I might even have to employ apostrophes and commas for these ignorant monglers of cocks)

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-14-2017, 06:37 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Good luck.

I love Shakespeare -- but I go see the plays...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-14-2017, 09:55 AM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Offline)
Verbosity Pales
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,833
Thanks: 360
Thanks 846
Default

Sounds like a good 'sittin' at the back of the room, stoned out my mind' kinda class.

Will there be homework? 'Cause that's a non-starter for me😎
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-14-2017, 10:02 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

All my classes were 'sittin' at the back of the room, stoned out my mind' kinda classes.

Art history was always problem. Turn off the lights, start showing slides -- and I was out for the duration.

I still have a hard time identifying the Venus of Willendorf.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-14-2017, 11:46 AM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Offline)
Verbosity Pales
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,833
Thanks: 360
Thanks 846
Default

I'm glad the fate of the world is securely in the hands of fine college educated youngin's like yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:13 AM
moonpunter's Avatar
moonpunter (Offline)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 267
Thanks: 15
Thanks 43
Default

How about Romeo & Juliet/ The Notebook lol
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-15-2017, 09:59 AM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default

@punter don't hurt me.

@brian I'm hoping it wont be so much that. I hope to get a whole lot of fake blood. I cant imagine anyone would be asleep for being unseamed from nave to chops. Or Quentin, prescient as he was, being uncomfortable with the idea of Caddy taking off her dress even at a young age, not least of all in front of a nigger. Probably what sparked his incest defense of her. Thought word and deed as the saying goes. It isn't like I'm picking works that aren't chock full of human meanness much as anything as I've written. Its just that most teachers I seen avoid them for that reason and if they do teach them they balk at actually exploring the concepts presented therein. Which is kind of understandable. These works were made for cultured adults not high school kids. I disbelieve any but the most advanced of them could really grapple with the themes these works grapple with themselves and even then I doubt they'd realize the horrible truth of them, that theyre not external to our lives but they thread them completely.



@myers I wouldn't do homework persay. Id have them do reading with a quick ten question quiz everyday with an extended essay every week. Five or so pages. But it would be more about reenacting and discussing the scenes

Last edited by bluewpc; 05-15-2017 at 10:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-15-2017, 02:04 PM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

That's all good.

My comment was more about personal preference. I've studied Shakespeare on my own -- but mostly for one purpose -- so I can enjoy and appreciate seeing the plays.

It's hard to put my finger on it exactly, but to me they are more easily understood if you've seen the plays in their entirety and in the intended context -- it's just not the same as dissecting them in classroom.

And really, I don't think there is much subtext in Shakespear -- it's often more about understanding the language and metaphor. What they say about human nature is often rather straightforward.

Anything that turns people on to Shakespeare is cool -- but by all means, people should make it a point to see the plays -- even some of the better film adaptations are a good place to start.

Last edited by Myers; 05-15-2017 at 02:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-15-2017, 02:51 PM
Gaines's Avatar
Gaines (Online)
Samuel Johnson, obviously!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tidepool
Posts: 6,942
Thanks: 1,454
Thanks 863
Default

I to was a big fan of Shakespeare in fact I thought that during its day it was the finest made fishing rod on the market.

Students should know about that. No telling when it will inspire one to someday be a Bass Master Champion.

There's no mystery or hidden meaning to Moby Dick. A bunch of morons in a wooden boat screwed with him and he sunk their boat and killed a shitload of sailors. Sort of an early day Jaws if you think about it.
__________________
"Show me a hero and I will write you a tragedy." Fitzgerald
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-15-2017, 02:54 PM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default

Well the plan that I had in mind was have the students read the plays and watch different adaptions simultaneously. Its like learning a language the idea is complete immersion. So for say Lear they would read the play over two weeks while acting it out in class whilst also watching different adaptions. The two I have in mind are Brooks 1971 adaption King Lear and Kurosawa's Ran. As we progressed there would be a number of quizzes and several essays culminating in a final essay that would cap off that section of the course.

And I agree people should see the plays but it isn't always feasible especially for classes. But god would it be wonderful. I once went to see Cyrano and right after the early fight where he dispatches a hundred foes by the docks he addressed the audience and asked were there any other challengers whereupon I stood hand raised. Bless that man's soul he in perfect improviso declared he did not combat drunks, the illiterate or infirm.

@gaines didn't see your post. Actually Moby-Dick is for all its obviousness maddeningly esoteric. Melville upon completing the novel told Hawthorne: I have written an evil book.

Last edited by bluewpc; 05-15-2017 at 03:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-15-2017, 03:57 PM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Yeah -- that sounds good.

And I'm not trying to crap on what you want to do.

Otherwise, I'm not big into comparative literature. It can be interesting, but a lot of it that isn't obvious is really forced or coincidental.

If you can make it interesting -- and let students come to their own conclusions or allow them to come up with good reasons to reject yours -- go for it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2017, 04:18 PM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
I to was a big fan of Shakespeare in fact I thought that during its day it was the finest made fishing rod on the market.

Students should know about that. No telling when it will inspire one to someday be a Bass Master Champion.
Being into Shakespeare is probably a great way to get chicks, because they would be like...

On second thought, never mind.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-15-2017, 11:09 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Offline)
Verbosity Pales
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,833
Thanks: 360
Thanks 846
Default

Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Being into Shakespeare is probably a great way to get chicks, because they would be like...



On second thought, never mind.


The girls I wanna be with love Bill.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-16-2017, 03:14 AM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default

@myers & bp no worries I never paid attention in class meownself. It actually is a good way when you can recite by heart Iago's I hate the moor soliloquy or Hamlet's Get Thee To A Nunnery it goes a ways. Women being impressed by more than just money. Its just money is the easiest way to do it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-16-2017, 05:54 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
The girls I wanna be with love Bill.
I don't know of or run into a lot people who love Shakespeare, women or otherwise.

We go to the plays, and there are lots of people there, but I think some percentage of them go because it seems like a good thing to do -- especially the outdoor and festival things. I went to a serviceable production of Macbeth at a community college, and I suspect most of the people there were friends and family of the actors etc.

My wife wasn't into it, but she was predisposed to some extent, because she liked good writing and theatre etc. Even so, I know she's indulging me to some extent when I want to go see a play.

Besides that Shakespeare is ingrained into the social consciousness and popular culture to some degree, I think it's a small number of dedicated people who keep it alive by continuing to stage and act in the plays etc. Most people couldn't care less, or they've been conditioned to think Shakespeare is too difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-16-2017, 06:07 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@myers & bp no worries I never paid attention in class meownself. It actually is a good way when you can recite by heart Iago's I hate the moor soliloquy or Hamlet's Get Thee To A Nunnery it goes a ways. Women being impressed by more than just money. Its just money is the easiest way to do it.
But to be on the safe side, I'd probably hold off on the soliloquies -- at least until the second or third date.

And if you put "Loves Shakespeare" on your Tinder profile, you do so at your own risk.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-18-2017, 03:46 AM
eripiomundus (Offline)
The Next Bard
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 407
Thanks: 27
Thanks 109
Default

Bluewpc: Since you seem to know what you're on about with the ol' Speare, maybe you can answer a question for me?

I could google it, I suppose, but then I wouldn't be making human contact as per the doctor's wishes:

I was reading Bulfinch's Greek and Roman Mythology the other day and came across a short tract about Pyramus and Thisbe, and it seemed to me that Shakespeare could easily have plagiarised the basic premise for use in Romeo and Juliet. Heard of any such?

Gaines: after I read Moby Dick I googled it for some background to let the reading linger, and it was based in part on a true story - there really was an irrascible white whale who seemed to delight in crushing ships, and is recorded to have sunk a fair few (the number 9 springs to mind, but my memory is shit).
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-18-2017, 06:13 AM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default

@erpiomundus while i haven't heard of Pyramus and Thisbe before it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was an influence or the source of the story altogether. Almost all of his plays are based on preexisting stories. Macbeth, King Lear, Merchant Of Venice, Othello are based on such and all of the histories are based on actual events. So aye Pyramus and Thisbe probably is a source.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-18-2017, 08:29 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Offline)
Verbosity Pales
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,833
Thanks: 360
Thanks 846
Default

Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Bluewpc: Since you seem to know what you're on about with the ol' Speare, maybe you can answer a question for me?

I could google it, I suppose, but then I wouldn't be making human contact as per the doctor's wishes:

I was reading Bulfinch's Greek and Roman Mythology the other day and came across a short tract about Pyramus and Thisbe, and it seemed to me that Shakespeare could easily have plagiarised the basic premise for use in Romeo and Juliet. Heard of any such?

Gaines: after I read Moby Dick I googled it for some background to let the reading linger, and it was based in part on a true story - there really was an irrascible white whale who seemed to delight in crushing ships, and is recorded to have sunk a fair few (the number 9 springs to mind, but my memory is shit).


Bill didn't steal it, he did an adaption of an adaption of an adaption.

He didn't invent any of the stories he wrote. They were all adaptions of previous works.

He wrote plays; he didn't invent philosophy or history.

He just gave them language befitting their reverence. And maybe some significant zingers. There's nothing new under the sun.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-18-2017, 09:49 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Offline)
Verbosity Pales
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,833
Thanks: 360
Thanks 846
Default The Master Through The Times

In the same way that Eric is not writing anything new in the Mere Tide. He is adding language to an existing story with layers and layers of context known to many. But it comes off as fresh for a modern audience.

You can't do better than that. And if you could, you would be homer, or James Joyce (Finnegans Wake).

...and none of us will be that...

Last edited by brianpatrick; 05-18-2017 at 10:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-19-2017, 08:49 AM
eripiomundus (Offline)
The Next Bard
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 407
Thanks: 27
Thanks 109
Default

Cheers for the responses Brian and Blue. N

I see someone fixed the site up. Good to see.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:22 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
In the same way that Eric is not writing anything new in the Mere Tide. He is adding language to an existing story with layers and layers of context known to many. But it comes off as fresh for a modern audience.

You can't do better than that. And if you could, you would be homer, or James Joyce (Finnegans Wake).

...and none of us will be that...
It's a revelation we all have, or should have at some point, and it's also a cliche -- that there are only so many stories.

I have a novel sitting in drawer -- it may yet see the light of day, one way or the other, but I remember the moment of clarity when I realized the story followed a certain pattern and the characters were more or less archetypes.

After the initial blow to my ego, I realized you should recognize it, understand it -- and then move on to make the story your own in a gazillion different ways. That's the reality for most of us -- and you shouldn't think about it too much or try too hard to fight it.

To make it analogous to writing pop songs -- acknowledge certain conventions and chords patterns that sound good -- then it's all about the melody and the instrumentation.

Last edited by Myers; 05-19-2017 at 10:25 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-19-2017, 10:24 AM
Myers's Avatar
Myers (Offline)
Heartbreaking Writer of Staggering Genius
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,725
Thanks: 337
Thanks 352
Default

Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
I see someone fixed the site up. Good to see.
It's a step in the right direction -- but the text in the blue bars isn't very readable...
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-20-2017, 05:19 AM
bluewpc's Avatar
bluewpc (Online)
Profusive Denizen
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 279
Thanks: 3
Thanks 34
Default

@brian Hah and actually Homer and Joyce also had their own traditions that they adhered to. Actually I was reading Eliot's essay in the Sacred Wood about tradition wherein he described it as a living thing and I came to the realization that tradition is actually the unification of both the creative impulses of the left and the conservative enshrinement of the old. You can find the essays here:

http://www.bartleby.com/200/


Also figured I'd start jotting down notes here, nothing in essay form yet. The first theme I want to explore is betrayal, its the fulcrum of Macbeth I'd say, and to a far more subtle degree the fulcrum on which S&F turns. I'm starting with a read of Sound and The Fury and here are some basic observations.

Benjy (Maury)

Indwells a permanent present uncircumscribed by past or future. His name switch from Benjy to Maury (after his retardation is discovered) seems to be an inversion of Native American naming ceremonies.

"Let him tell." Caddy said. "I dont give a cuss. Carry Maury up the hill, Versh." Versh squatted and I got on his back. Pg. 22

Also his age seems to be an allusion to the Christ however an ineffectual Christ incapable of resurrecting the Compton house:

"You mean, he been three years old thirty years" Pg. 19


Following this line of reasoning he forms a trinity with his brothers, a quaternity with his sister: Quentin, Benjy, Jason. Caddy the mater dei, Quentin the filiam dei. Possible parallel of the brothers, the weird brothers, with the weird sisters that prophesize to Macbeth.



The Uncle Maury Triste

Maury, of low birth, uses Caddy and Benjy both as unwitting go-betweens for his liaison between himself and Mrs. Patterson. Besides being a betrayal of familial and parental trust it foreshadows Caddy's own promiscuity and later infidelity to her fiancé. It is also the first hint of the corruption of blood through the violation of sanctity of the supposed birthdate of the Christ.



Quentin (Caddy's daughter) Her meanness is reminiscent of Jason's without his particular pathology. Possible Caddy slept with man who reminded her of Jason in an act of sexual comfort directed psychologically towards her least liked brother.



Quentin (Son) Foreshadowing suicide:

Niggers say a drowned man's shadow was watching for him in the water all the time. pg. 77

Quentin was still standing there by the branch. He was chunking into the shadows where the branch was. Pg. 24

Last edited by bluewpc; 05-28-2017 at 07:33 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

  WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Master of Gauntlets: A Song of The Gauntlet Chapter 2 1613 words Yonathan1 Fiction 0 09-02-2016 04:00 PM
An older story re-written. malicant Fiction 6 11-09-2011 12:49 AM
Changing times. Lunoe Fiction 7 09-02-2011 06:28 PM
So I had this crazy idea... Mike C Publishing 297 01-04-2011 09:30 PM
Funny Times Jay Writing Markets 0 05-16-2006 09:10 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:38 PM.

vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.