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  #61  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:49 AM
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Why would you compare Merkel to Hitler - because she's German?

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Old 12-10-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
- if you want to post links, have a few lines on your thoughts on what you are posting.

RE: Russia being accused of interfering with POTUS 2016

The Washington Post jumps on the bandwagon, alleging that it was Russians who provided Wikileaks with info on Hillary, thus shading the election....

If they did, would it be just deserts? Didn't various US people (Insane McCain) undermine a Pro Russian president in Uraine who was ELECTED?

And this article is loose with any "proof". One of the sources seems to be Lipstick Lyndsey Graham.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...06c_story.html

US intelligence finds that the Rooskies are attempting a takedown of Hitler in High Heels (or as FlyingTart says Hitler in Lipstick) aka Merkel

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...s-official-cia

She's not good for the German people themselves, I feel she needs to go so if they did, good riddance to bad trash. Of course with the warning of Unintended Consequences.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I am not seeing is charges of Vote Rigging. But there is a danger in this reporting - are they trying to cast doubt before state electors and then The US House Of Representatives confirm the election?


Could this be an attempt by the administration and some in Congress to change the results of the election?

And wouldn't that be playing with fire?

Ok so fair enough Ill post a thought or two on the links.

As for the rest Russia was formally accused last month. The WP article today simply states publicly what was already known within the agencies. It's not up for debate. There's no room for interpretation.

Now I'll qualify that. So I have an acquaintance affiliated with Socialistalternative.org and he says well this is a reputable site so I go and do a DNS lookup find out they're affiliated with Iliad Enterprises and that that server terminates in Proxad, a bot ISP. Specifically tok69-2-82-224-120-125.fbx.proxad.net

Now that's not open for interpretation. That's fact. Your sources which say Washington was behind the overthrow of Yanukovich stems from Sputnik.

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201502021017649839/

Which references this interview done in 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwcbY5iYg8I

Now here's a summary of what caused the riots in the first place:

http://www.ibtimes.com/riots-kiev-co...kraine-1556592

Having been to Kiev myself and talked to people who participated in the riots well I can personally account for the veracity of it. I know for a fact you cant. That's fact, not open for interpretation or debate.

Here's the other thing the Maidan riots started November 30th, 2013. Russia annexed Crimea March 18th. Yanukovych had fled to Moscow by then and Poroshenko was inaugurated June 2014.

The assistance received from the US administration was joining the World Trade Organization done before the riots. The brokered deal was during the riots to ensure a peaceful transition of power but this fell through when Yanukovych had little green men open fire on demonstrators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnBa0Uj3Ijw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahjaTulXPGQ

Oh and Ive been to these places personally.

Now again dealing strictly with facts that are not up for debate. Sputnik, RT, Global Research are disinformation outlets controlled by the Kremlin. That is not up for debate. Everything that comes from them is suspect at absolute best.

I don't often say this but things are coming to a head and we are whether you realize it or not in a civilizational struggle. You do not know what you are talking about. If you want to compare and contrast the American civilization with the Russian then I suggest you take a trip to Russia and see for yourself. Or hell come here to America if you're Russian and see how much better our system works. Speak to people on the ground humint is still one of the best ways to gather intelligence. I would also highly advise you to reconsider your sources of information or at the very least give them a critical analysis before swallowing them without reservation.

Lastly this worship of authoritarianism is as contradictory as the insanity on the far left. Orwell rightfully points out that they are indistinguishable. You do not have freedom of speech, freedom of press, you are ruled as opposed to being governed, censorship is an omnipresent reality as is corruption. If you think you will somehow benefit from this, you are absolutely wrong. It will cannibalize you. Read the Gulag Archipelago to see what the soviet union did and then remember that Putin is a distillation of that civilization.

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Old 12-10-2016, 10:45 AM
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Blaming foreigners for the corruption of one's own politicians is an obvious case of paranoia, if not xenophobic.

I blame Hollywood. Ever wonder why the bad guy is usually foreign?
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  #64  
Old 12-12-2016, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Why would you compare Merkel to Hitler - because she's German?
Let me conduct some self examination and get back to you on that....
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:09 AM
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Putin Speaks to Russia
Christmas 2016

https://vid.me/ZWnk
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  #66  
Old 12-28-2016, 01:02 PM
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@Mohican I can't reply to everything in that video right this moment as today is pretty busy but I'd like to turn the tables on you a minute. Do you really believe him to be speaking what he truly believes and why do you believe that?

I do have a Times article on hand, and there are about a hundred other articles, some with Putin talking about the decline of russian population, that refutes with his own words one of his claims that Western populations are decreasing as Russia is slated to decrease to about 111 million by 2050, down from 143 million.

http://content.time.com/time/special...097841,00.html

Now he also is using a fallacy in this tying reproductive rates to cultural change as he offers no evidence of that but I think its important for him to use a strawman because otherwise people would consider other factors, like rampant corruption, economic rigidity, generational poverty and the like.

Gotta go for now but I'll get to the rest at some point in the week.
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:28 PM
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Your asking the wrong question, Blue

And IHMO, his statements on birthrates aren't fallacy.
That is something that might be hard to empirically quantify.
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  #68  
Old 12-28-2016, 06:59 PM
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*Your should be You're

Don't be coy, just answer my questions. I'm being honest and straightforward with you be that way with me.

Now as far as far as population decline, the fact of that is not in question, though the US population is increasing, what is in question is the reasons for that decline in developed countries. He attributes that cause to cultural erosion but a thousand other factors influence population growth. Take Japan for example. A highly traditional culture that has historically resisted foreign intrusion, how do you explain their decline in population? To simplify it to it being just the invasion of foreign cultures is ridiculous.

I understand your reservations and concerns. I truly do. I view the LGBTY+2 what the fuck ever with the same disdain and I recognize their totalitarian ideology for what it is but that doesn't mean you disregard the evils of your faction. I am for gay folk of whatever stripe being afforded the same civil rights as the rest of the populace but I draw the line when they try to usurp even the slightest amount of power over the populace, which they are doing. And I oppose that. But I also oppose stripping them of rights afforded to every other citizen. Its a constant balancing act. But what you don't do is engage in the same tactics of disinformation and lies of omission that they do. Because it makes you no better in fact it makes you them. There's no real difference between the far left and far right, they both in the end do the same thing. You have to find a balance and that means adhering to the truth even if it destroys you.

I've been in that situation before. I've put my money where my mouth is. If you've looked at my other stuff on the site you know who I am, where I live, what I do, and I stand by my words. I ask of you the same thing. If you're a traditionalist I challenge you to adhere to traditional ethics, be honest, even when it hurts, even when reality doesn't agree with your view of the world. I do that as much as I can and I welcome arguments that challenge my beliefs because I want my beliefs to adhere as close to reality as possible. I can't see you disagreeing with that.
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  #69  
Old 12-29-2016, 08:20 AM
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Have I been dishonest? No. And who are you to make demands on me? And thank you for the grammar check.

Telling you that you got the question wrong is not being dishonest. Or dodging. It was an attempt to get stir some thought.

The first question that you didn't ask : Do I believe what Putin is saying is correct? Yes I do.

Do I think that he means is or is sincere? I will give him the doubt. I think that he recognized the cultural rot and that it is bad for his country.

I recognize that Putin is potentially still a brutal (ex?) KGB (no more KGB?) thug, and there probably is corruption.

So when he says that Christianity is good for Russia, and when he says that Islam is bad for Russia I don't mix the message and the messenger.

I admire him much more than George Bush II, B. Hussein Obama, John Kerry, John McCain, Lyndsey Graham, John Bolton and a host of others.
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Old 12-29-2016, 10:25 AM
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First things first. I made no demands on you. I said: I ask of you the same thing. If you're a traditionalist I challenge you...

Those are hugely different from demand and we'll have plenty to argue about without you putting words in my mouth. Now as for the challenge I have every right to challenge you. I think its more than fair to assume you're a Christian and so should adhere to the best of your ability to its tenants. I am not a Christian but I am a disciple of the western canon that's formed by the two colossi of Shakespeare and the Bible and so to make that claim I have to be familiar with and adhere to the fundamental principles underlying each. I have a responsibility to act a certain way which I see you as having abdicated.

Telling me that I asked the wrong questions is pretentious first of all and qualifies as dodging in lieu of not providing the right questions and then going on to elucidate why they are the right questions. You're attempting to gain superiority in the conversation without any effort. Well I'll call you on that every time.

Now I also think you're being dishonest, not in the sense that you're telling outright lies but in omission and concealment. You're a Christian, I presume with high confidence, you are concerned with cultural change. Ok that's fine. Say that but don't skirt around it. When you listed the presidents you put B. Hussein Obama when everyone else's full name is given. Well guess what I sat in a gun shop for ten years, I know what that means. If you don't like niggers just say you don't like niggers. For god's sake I've been around the block more than once you're not going not to offend me and I'm not going to bite your head off or eat your lunch. Just be honest with how you feel and where you stand because otherwise we can't have a productive conversation.

The other part that's dishonest is refusal to acknowledge facts or acting as if they don't have relevance to your beliefs. Last night I had a conversation with a friend that's a communist. His argument is that communism is the best economic doctrine and that Marx was a genius who invented sociology. But when I point out the Gulag system that communism birthed he exclaimed that Solzhenitsyn was a czarist as if that somehow negated if not the actuality of the system's existence then at least its significance.

What I am trying to do here is point out that while you may respect the message, the messenger always has to be considered. And if the actions of the messenger do not align with the message then one has to consider whether or not the message is not somehow tainted.

But you want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt because what he's saying resonates with your outlook on reality. Ok. But in ignoring the flagrant violations of the principles with which he ostensibly ascribes himself makes become identical to the ghetto blacks who idolize a drug kingpin because he's black and he bucks the system all the while feeding off of them.

Now for the rest of the video I want to break that down and its not going to be easy and its going to take me a while and I have other things I need to do. Over the next few weeks I will do what I can to examine the message. I think that's fair enough and hold me to it if it seems like I've forgotten just send me a PM to remind me.


"We see that many euro-atlantic states have taken the way where they deny or reject their own roots, including the Christian roots which form the basis of western civilization."

His opening lines seems to me to be a reference to Postmodernism which I detest but which finds its roots in French intellectualism. Its also interesting that he counts Russia as a western civilization which I will refute till the day I die.

I'm reminded of Marquis de Custine writing in 1839 this telling comment about Russia:

"I don't blame the Russians for being what they are, I blame them for pretending to be what we in the West are."

I would highly recommend his book Journey for Our Time.

Last edited by bluewpc; 12-29-2016 at 11:14 AM..
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  #71  
Old 12-29-2016, 11:49 AM
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This site has been inaccessible to me for a while, but it's a relief to see the level of batshit mental hasn't waned in my absence.
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Old 12-29-2016, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
This site has been inaccessible to me for a while, but it's a relief to see the level of batshit mental hasn't waned in my absence.


Said the Rusk-bot😆😆😆




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  #73  
Old 12-29-2016, 06:08 PM
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Hey -- WTF? I tried to start a thread and couldn't do it.

Who's running this shit show and why aren't they paying attention?

Or maybe it's just time to let this thing die.
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Said the Rusk-bot😆😆😆
As Shakespeare once said - or was it the Marquis de Custard? - "Tis better to be a Rusk-bot and suffer the slings and arrows of frothy mouthed loons than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle." Or words to that effect.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Hey -- WTF? I tried to start a thread and couldn't do it.

Who's running this shit show and why aren't they paying attention?

Or maybe it's just time to let this thing die.




This is the guy you need to talk to.



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  #76  
Old 12-30-2016, 03:05 PM
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Oh, sorry, it's actually this guy who's in charge. The other guy is just a minimum wage employee.




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Old 12-31-2016, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post


This is the guy you need to talk to.



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Always wondered how I would look on the 'net.

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Old 01-03-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
. You're a Christian, I presume with high confidence, you are concerned with cultural change. Ok that's fine. Say that but don't skirt around it. When you listed the presidents you put B. Hussein Obama when everyone else's full name is given. Well guess what I sat in a gun shop for ten years, I know what that means. If you don't like niggers just say you don't like niggers. For god's sake I've been around the block more than once you're not going not to offend me and I'm not going to bite your head off or eat your lunch. Just be honest with how you feel and where you stand because otherwise we can't have a productive conversation.


I've been pecking at this wood for some time now, slapping at the back door. I like your direct approach.

I realize people have different philosophies and ideas. I can accept that, but why hide them? Just say what you really mean.


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Old 01-05-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Now I also think you're being dishonest, not in the sense that you're telling outright lies but in omission and concealment. You're a Christian, I presume with high confidence, you are concerned with cultural change. Ok that's fine. Say that but don't skirt around it. When you listed the presidents you put B. Hussein Obama when everyone else's full name is given. Well guess what I sat in a gun shop for ten years, I know what that means. If you don't like niggers just say you don't like niggers. For god's sake I've been around the block more than once you're not going not to offend me and I'm not going to bite your head off or eat your lunch. Just be honest with how you feel and where you stand because otherwise we can't have a productive conversation.

The other part that's dishonest is refusal to acknowledge facts or acting as if they don't have relevance to your beliefs. Last night I had a conversation with a friend that's a communist. His argument is that communism is the best economic doctrine and that Marx was a genius who invented sociology. But when I point out the Gulag system that communism birthed he exclaimed that Solzhenitsyn was a czarist as if that somehow negated if not the actuality of the system's existence then at least its significance.

.
You're making assumptions about honesty or whether or not I'm a racist, based on tired, worn out canard that "you sat in a gun shop for ten years". I have more contempt for the Clintons than for Obama, so perhaps I should not mince words and just call them Bubbas or Arkansas white trash? Or perhaps because I don't approach the heralded Obama with sovereign deference that I must hate blacks? I think Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is a shit weasel, perhaps because he’s of Irish decent I should be honest and call him a Dirty Mick or a Bog Trotter?


If you had been around for a while and payed attention (not cherry picking or jumping to conclusions) you might have gleaned that I have said that Obama was preferable to McCain, and probably a better choice than Romney but not by much.

I'll submit that you are perhaps mistaking your opinion, or the opinion of people that get your opinions from as facts. Of course it’s facts, because every single link you present is truth, and news, observations and opinions gleaned from opposing sites are lies, I tell you, Lies.

People that listen to Rush Limbaugh repeat as fact that "Republicans, if they run as true conservatives always win". And people that listen to the Randi Rhodes of the world will say that cutting taxes never stimulates and that the government always makes better choices with money than the private sector. "


It appears that are not hearing the response you want so you are making personal attacks.

And BrianPatrick, you don’t have the tools to successfully “peck away”.
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:25 PM
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Are you saying brianpatrick doesn't have a pecker?
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Old 01-05-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Are you saying brianpatrick doesn't have a pecker?


I can prove I do. Should I post pics?

Mind you, I'm an Irish guy, so don't expect a lot.


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Old 01-05-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post

And BrianPatrick, you don’t have the tools to successfully “peck away”.

It's not YOUR opinion I'm trying to change.



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Old 01-06-2017, 02:32 PM
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Not assumptions, inferences. But since were down to that and shouting at each other why don't we restate our positions and try again.

Purpose of the thread: Provision of materials meant to educate the public on russian activities in the world, information warfare in its various instantiations and specifically its subset of cyber warfare.

Now my argument with you is tangential but related and in the delineation of the argument I can show why the video you posted above is to be taken with a truck load of salt. So two birds with one stone.

My disagreement with you is predicated upon the disassociation of language and action. When dissonance exists between the two language becomes unmoored from reality and hemorrhages meaning and thus leads to cultural decay.
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Old 01-06-2017, 02:55 PM
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Also major news:

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

We may be headed to a civil war. Hopefully just war with Russia.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:10 AM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38542415

You cannot side with a hostile power over your own intelligence agencies without being a traitor.
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:45 AM
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Okay. So I believe the Russians are a hostile enemy. But, the US is also considered a hostile enemy by a lot of other countries, guilty of many modern atrocities. JSOC covert operations in dozens of countries, while not garnering large media coverage in the US, is a fact. We kill people—yes, in the name of freedom and security for our people—in ways and means that can be described as barbaric.

So all of us humans are dirty murderous self-protecting monkeys with large brains, capable of unspeakable destruction.

I really don't think this is how it HAS to be. I really believe it's possible to turn around. Maybe I'm not smart, like Mohican says, but the whole shitty scheming web of deceit and deception and posturing seems silly and fucked-up to me. It's like a bunch of children playing a game with REAL consequences. Babies in charge of life and death and suffering.

How do you draw a line for what's truly evil and what's just sort of evil? I don't see it.

Yes, the Russians are enemies, but if we are all enemies, then maybe we need to cooperate to survive.

I'm willing to let Trump do his thing. I know he may destroy our way of life, but our way of life is gained on the backs of billions of other people. Can anyone say those people are less important than us? Really? They didn't try hard enough? Fight hard enough? Weren't clever enough? Deserve to die or starve or be tortured because they couldn't properly defend themselves?




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Old 01-07-2017, 12:19 PM
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@brian Alright and I would agree. They say that you cannot conceptualize an idea without also conceptualizing its opposite. Jung in Answer To Job pointed out that the Jews did not have this problem since Yahweh embodied both benevolence and evil.

So from our history (I assume you're American) you could look at Mai Lai (or just Vietnam in general), the annexation of Texas and California, the genocide of the natives, slavery, on and on.

But fundamentals, if you engage in this kind of thinking then three things happen. First you end up trapped in a loop of tit for tat, second you give tacit endorsement to moral transgressions, and thirdly you take responsibility for things you have never done. This is why I find this white guilt wave to be complete bullshit. I'm an American but my ethnicity is German Chinese Aztec (which basically just means fucking Mexican) and Norwegian. If I wanted I could vent what would be legitimate grievances in the eyes of the public but our history is in the past and it has to remain there. We have all done evil so it does not do any good to weigh the scales and say you got to commit more evil than me. We should just be against evil.

Now we are all dirty murderous self-protecting monkeys with large brains capable of unspeakable destruction but that is not the totality. Its not the extent of the human umwelt. In us is the ability to nail a nine year old to the wall cut her father's dick off shove it in her and let it rot for a week. Also in us is the ability to forgive the man who has tortured us or done us grievous wrong. Its a matter of who you choose to be but you cant choose in the moment. You have to lay a foundation on which a framework can be erected that allows you to do either. This would be culture.

Now that brings me to my next point but before I go into that I'd like to talk about evil. There is no line between sort of evil and truly evil. Evil is simply that. Its an effable aspect of reality in complete opposition to the good. If you haven't experienced evil then I don't think I can really explain it. I might recommend Blood Meridian to you as a good primer on evil but then I would also recommend the bible.

Here is the thing: our way of life is predicated on the fundamental principle of human agency and from that is derived the golden rule and the telling of truth. Now that doesn't mean that we are perfect or that we adhere always to them but it does mean that we strive for them and that we have an obligation to act in accordance with them as much as possible whilst also refusing to tolerate their transgression.

Now human agency presupposes human worth, were not means to an end we are the end and this is where western culture and russian culture collide. Because from our formulation we make the judgement that my life is worth something but that those lives are not equal. You would not argue that a nuclear physicist's life is worth less than a bottlemaker. You would not argue that the man who cures a strain of leukemia is of less worth than a janitor. If we have value than we have discrimination to determine value but within our own society we mitigate this by saying that we are all equal under the law. And me and Meyers had a talk about this that never really reached a conclusion because I had other things to do but I think i'll revisit it now. We are not equal in ability but we do have an inherent value which the law recognizes in its equal application at least that is the supposition of our society and it is something worth aspiring too even if its not always true. And I want to hit that again just because it is not perfect does not mean you abandon the ideal.

The dark side of human agency is that we allow people to fail but in this society we recognize as Ecclesiastes says: But time and chance happeneth to them all. and so we have a safety net for those to whom time and chance happen. Nor can we be held responsible for what other countries do, we can implore them to act a way, but if we presuppose sovereignty, as the natural consequence of human agency, we have to let them be as they will themselves to be. This does not mean acquiescing when they attack us.

In the russian culture the individual is a commodity to be used by the state. There is no better example of this than the gulag system that lasted for decades and killed tens of millions but a good example would the be the 1995 Moscow apartment bombings used to enthuse the populace for war against Chechnya when FSB agents were found planting bombs by residents in their complex.

So I think I hit everything in your post. Let me know if theres anything I missed or you want me to clarify.
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@brian Alright and I would agree. They say that you cannot conceptualize an idea without also conceptualizing its opposite. Jung in Answer To Job pointed out that the Jews did not have this problem since Yahweh embodied both benevolence and evil.

So from our history (I assume you're American) you could look at Mai Lai (or just Vietnam in general), the annexation of Texas and California, the genocide of the natives, slavery, on and on.

But fundamentals, if you engage in this kind of thinking then three things happen. First you end up trapped in a loop of tit for tat, second you give tacit endorsement to moral transgressions, and thirdly you take responsibility for things you have never done. This is why I find this white guilt wave to be complete bullshit. I'm an American but my ethnicity is German Chinese Aztec (which basically just means fucking Mexican) and Norwegian. If I wanted I could vent what would be legitimate grievances in the eyes of the public but our history is in the past and it has to remain there. We have all done evil so it does not do any good to weigh the scales and say you got to commit more evil than me. We should just be against evil.

Now we are all dirty murderous self-protecting monkeys with large brains capable of unspeakable destruction but that is not the totality. Its not the extent of the human umwelt. In us is the ability to nail a nine year old to the wall cut her father's dick off shove it in her and let it rot for a week. Also in us is the ability to forgive the man who has tortured us or done us grievous wrong. Its a matter of who you choose to be but you cant choose in the moment. You have to lay a foundation on which a framework can be erected that allows you to do either. This would be culture.

Now that brings me to my next point but before I go into that I'd like to talk about evil. There is no line between sort of evil and truly evil. Evil is simply that. Its an effable aspect of reality in complete opposition to the good. If you haven't experienced evil then I don't think I can really explain it. I might recommend Blood Meridian to you as a good primer on evil but then I would also recommend the bible.

Here is the thing: our way of life is predicated on the fundamental principle of human agency and from that is derived the golden rule and the telling of truth. Now that doesn't mean that we are perfect or that we adhere always to them but it does mean that we strive for them and that we have an obligation to act in accordance with them as much as possible whilst also refusing to tolerate their transgression.

Now human agency presupposes human worth, were not means to an end we are the end and this is where western culture and russian culture collide. Because from our formulation we make the judgement that my life is worth something but that those lives are not equal. You would not argue that a nuclear physicist's life is worth less than a bottlemaker. You would not argue that the man who cures a strain of leukemia is of less worth than a janitor. If we have value than we have discrimination to determine value but within our own society we mitigate this by saying that we are all equal under the law. And me and Meyers had a talk about this that never really reached a conclusion because I had other things to do but I think i'll revisit it now. We are not equal in ability but we do have an inherent value which the law recognizes in its equal application at least that is the supposition of our society and it is something worth aspiring too even if its not always true. And I want to hit that again just because it is not perfect does not mean you abandon the ideal.

The dark side of human agency is that we allow people to fail but in this society we recognize as Ecclesiastes says: But time and chance happeneth to them all. and so we have a safety net for those to whom time and chance happen. Nor can we be held responsible for what other countries do, we can implore them to act a way, but if we presuppose sovereignty, as the natural consequence of human agency, we have to let them be as they will themselves to be. This does not mean acquiescing when they attack us.

In the russian culture the individual is a commodity to be used by the state. There is no better example of this than the gulag system that lasted for decades and killed tens of millions but a good example would the be the 1995 Moscow apartment bombings used to enthuse the populace for war against Chechnya when FSB agents were found planting bombs by residents in their complex.

So I think I hit everything in your post. Let me know if theres anything I missed or you want me to clarify.


I'm sure this is outside your thread intention, but I believe culture (and all other maps) are outside, and poor renditions of existence and the reality of humanness. Further toward this: if all cultures have different maps, then they will invariably collide at many different points and engage in tit for tat repeatedly until one or both are eliminated. The map is not the territory and never will be. This is the same argument Mohican embraces when he says Islam is incompatible with our world view (but stops short of outright saying: we should nuke them all and get it over with).

Indeed, in many cases, the maps we create become impetus and initiation of more tit for tat in the form of justification and maintenance of the rules we lay down.

So. Why bother? The level of complexity is so staggering when the reality of what's possible is very simple.
Our current system breeds unnecessary conflict and tension, feeds off of it. We grow up in this system and most can't see past it. We don't educate people properly and so here we are stuck in it again, repeating the same history over and over.

So. Why bother? I mean, aside from the entertainment value.


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Last edited by brianpatrick; 01-07-2017 at 03:11 PM..
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:50 PM
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ha! you should know the answer to that one. In literature we say the word is always at a remove from the object, the dream is never the reality, in physics the model is not the reality. But while the map is not the territory it does have its value.

Here is the thing our maps of the world, to use your analogy, should not be static. I'm going to take the easy way out and copy pasta an argument I had concerning this just last week:


Glassy: You're right in that this is more of a philosophical question. A person's worldview will dictate what they believe in these instances. For example, I believe humans were made to be held to a higher standard. Our extra ability to self reflect isn't just an evolutionary trait to help us survive, but part of our creation, to put us above the animals. In fact, our ability to self reflect is part of what makes us "In God's Image."
*
Bluewpc: Now you glassy*I feel are mistaken about your a priori foundations of intentionality. I would invert the relationship you hold between mankind and essence because under your consideration, grounded in theology, essence precedes existence but I don't think this matches reality. Heidegger conceptualizes dasein as presence in direct engagement with reality whilst abstaining from everyday escapisms. I consider it as being that is becoming towards an eschatology. Because if you engage reality you're always in a state of dynamism due to the constant influx of new information, if you're unconscious day to day you become stagnant.

Now this precludes absolute knowledge, but not moral truth, which is kind of irrelevant because one of the major recognitions of religions is that perfect knowledge is unattainable and in fact Jung proved quite conclusively in Answer to Job that even though Yahweh possesses omniscience he still fails to consult it thus explaining how Satan is able to confound and trick him so damn often.* But the reason why this constant dynamism doesn't preclude moral truth is because in order to properly ascertain reality one has to be truthful about it and so in this constant resynchronization you are constantly reevaluating reality so that the truth you possess doesn't become corrupt because that's what happens to ancient systems if they don't update, they become corrupt and broken down and then something new comes along to supplant it.
*
But herein also lies a problem. The very claim of omniscience implies preexisting accomplishment. That's simply to say that things are already done in time they're just waiting to be acted out except that they have already been acted out and so one has to then conceptualize consciousness as moving through experiential frames in a material universe with the delusion that it has the ability to influence reality. Well there's a couple problems with that. The first is that the delusion of agency is a trick and that undermines the concept of omnibenevolence because you wouldn't think of a loving god as deceptive. The second problem with that is that you encounter the same problem as Alatareil. Without free will moral quality loses meaning.

So the answer to that is typically Milton's two formulations the first of man,

Sufficient to stand through free to fall

and then of god,

They therefore as to right belongd,
So were created, nor can justly accuse
Thir maker, or thir making, or thir Fate,
As if predestination over-rul'd
Thir will, dispos'd by absolute Decree
Or high foreknowledge; they themselves decreed
Thir own revolt, not I: if I foreknew,
Foreknowledge had no influence on their fault,
Which had no less prov'd certain unforeknown

You can't ignore the flagrant contradiction of will and predestination. As if predestination itself had a will. Because what you see here is if not an anthropomorphization of predestination, ala the fates, than a manifestation of it as an entity distinct of god. But predestination cannot overrule anything because predestination in itself does not decree what is predestined. It would be like a country making its own map. So that major flaw is subtly overlooked and in that overlooking the false impression that will can override predestination is given. But if its actually true then omnipotence is curbed. Because who else could decree a fate with any certainty if not god and if that can be defied well than that sets man over god which is exactly what happened in the story of Job but we won't get into that.
*
​Now the other problem with omniscience is the presupposition*that all is known and thus nothing can change so you have the same stagnation. The possibility of change suggests that things were not known but omniscience should know how it is going to act and in fact that it has acted already.*Finitude however allows for dynamism whereas infinity already contains all things and possibilities*and so cannot*change. Its weird a concept that infinity is static but that's the logical*conclusion*one has to draw. *

So every time you try to insist on an infallible deity you then have to explain how fallibility got into the world because to say that evil and death entered the world with the fall is to ignore the snake in the garden.

This is me examining the same problem from the opposite end of the spectrum:

Alatariel: "Cruel" is a human animal construct. Although it's a regular occurrence these days for science to finally admit that non human animals can feel a very wide range of emotions, it doesn't often talk about the very basics of all animal behavior. All animal behavior (even ours) is about sex and death. All animals spend their lives avoiding one to get the other and perpetuate their line. This is forgotten by us, because our brains are so much bigger and we create much to do, to fill up that epic capacity with complications, but sex and death are our drivers as much as they are to any other animal species.
*
Bluewpc: So here's my problem with your approach. By reducing all human behavior to the dichotic interplay of sex and death you render us purely mechanical operations and even from a strictly empirical view this fails to account for all of reality. Consciousness. I have it though its neither externally observable or quantifiable but I know it exists and part of having a fully developed consciousness is recognizing that even though its inaccessible to me other people are in possession of that same consciousness. Its escaping the narcissism of infancy.

One of the inescapable consequences of being strictly causal machines, which by the way you can't have because were not founded on the deterministic principles of Newtonian mathematics but in the probabilistic nature of the quantum, is that there is no human agency ergo no ability to function as moral agents.

Lets examine the word cruel now in this light. Ok. Well its an adjective. It describes an ontological mode. But it also carries shades of judgment and here we run up against a problem. Because judgment implies possibility. In a deterministic world were restricted to the technical language of description as opposed to prescription and so language becomes unstable because the consensus which served as its foundation becomes relational and hyper subjectified and that doesn't work because it ignores the inner psyche or soul or whatever you want to call it which is necessary for life so far as I can tell.
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:59 PM
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So. Why bother? The level of complexity is so staggering when the reality of what's possible is very simple.
Our current system breeds unnecessary conflict and tension, feeds off of it. We grow up in this system and most can't see past it. We don't educate people properly and so here we are stuck in it again, repeating the same history over and over.

So. Why bother? I mean, aside from the entertainment value.


This though. I call that the suicide question. If you're going to ask why then you should also ask why should you live?
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