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  #31  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Oh -- and you looks like you are assuming that that this guy is asking or expecting people to love him or perhaps some entity connected to him. Maybe he just wants us to love each other?

Again, this sounds like you're talking about someone who is christ-like with a similar motivation or plan.

Is that a given in this scenario? Didn't seem like it in your O.P.
No, it's not Myers, you're right - just drawing on what we already have, which isn't sufficiently compelling, in any of it's versions, for some of us. So what would be?

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  #32  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
He needs a slap. It gets his brain and ego all fired up.
Yes -- I can see how that works.
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  #33  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
My premise is clearly laid out Gaines - HOW would we react nowadays to someone claiming divinity and producing the miraculous? I was kind enough to offer you a recent example

Don't ask me to check my premise when you clearly haven't read it or understood it.

In this day and age of cynicism - WHAT would convince us of the physical manifestation of a higher power?
Well, for starters if this mythical being of yours, (God?), were to enlighten you as to the real purpose of your premise I for one would become a believer!

Now that would be a miracle!

In fact I would go so far as to buy your kid, let's just call him Jeffery for the sake of argument, a full grown pit bull just to see how long he torments it. It would save you a lot of time and anguish.
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:14 AM
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Crass....

although an accidentally valid point about the pit bull Gaines - if our superior power was similarly minded to you, it would support the production of arms and nuclear weapons out of the same curiosity as yours just to see how far we would go...I like your thinking.

You really don't need to appeal to any deity to find out the reason behind my question - you could just ask me sweetie.
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  #35  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
No, it's not Myers, you're right - just drawing on what we already have, which isn't sufficiently compelling, in any of it's versions, for some of us. So what would be?
I tried to throw a few things out there.

But yes -- that was my point more or less. Like if you were writing a novel, would you have it go down just as expected -- with quite miracles and the guy getting crucified literally or figuratively? I think that's been done.

Because I would consider a less likely course of events and then do my best to make them seem plausible. With something like this there are an infinite number of twists and turns and combinations of events at your disposal.

Since this hasn't happened and isn't likely to happen, I think that's as good a way to approach it as any. The problem is there so many "what ifs" -- you could go on all day.

Maybe it is God. He's changed his mind -- and he's decided to give us ONE more chance -- so he drops in for the last time to tell us to get our shit together. Like when your mom is driving and she says, "Kids, do I have to pull this car over...?"

Or maybe he's an alien, and he's going to round us all up onto spaceships to make us slaves on a distance planet. Well, maybe not. I'm not into science fiction -- but I think that one's been done before too.

The other thing is, I think how this might play out comes down to the questions being mostly the same as when you are considering the existence of any God or higher power. That's when things usually get dicey in these discussions. And I know that's what you're trying to avoid...

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  #36  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Crass....

although an accidentally valid point about the pit bull Gaines - if our superior power was similarly minded to you, it would support the production of arms and nuclear weapons out of the same curiosity as yours just to see how far we would go...I like your thinking.

You really don't need to appeal to any deity to find out the reason behind my question - you could just ask me sweetie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call me sweetie now but will you respect me by the next post?

I do understand your premise. I am simply tormenting you...well...because I can!

A superior being among us would not do well in this world. Feeding the multitudes with a can of sardines and a loaf of Wonder Bread is risky business.

Someone believed to be a true miracle worker would undoubtedly convert many non-believers but there will always be those die hard doom and gloom patrons immune to open mindedness and the possibility that there really is more to heaven and hell than meets the eye.

If ever that superior being does arrive I hope they have a cure for ignorance.
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  #37  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:44 AM
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And I wouldn't be too surprised if a certain someone sniffs the word Jesus wafting out over the internet...

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  #38  
Old 05-13-2017, 07:47 AM
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Nietzsche wrote:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

This was Nietzsche's observation of the mutilation science had done unto religion. If I could take an oblique shot at answering your question, by answering something you didn't ask, I think the real question under yours is is man divine. Because small miracles happen everyday. People are miraculously cured of disease and injury all the time its just that your perspective seems to observe only the present without the unfathomably vast history that led up to it. I mean if the spontaneous creation of matter and then that matter's coalescence into life and then that life's coalescence into consciousness that then becomes proficient enough to investigate not just the world around it but itself to such a degree that it can begin to modify its own environment, and hence its reality, if that isn't a miracle I'm not sure what is. And I'm using miracle here I'm not sure if its in the sense of its magical or the achievement of the physically impossible but certainly I'm at least using it in the sense that something is so statistically remote as to effectively be impossible.

So perhaps the better question is are we so suffused with miracles, have they become so common that we cease to view them as miracles?
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  #39  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
I tried to throw a few things out there.

But yes -- that was my point more or less. Like if you were writing a novel, would you have it go down just as expected -- with quite miracles and the guy getting crucified literally or figuratively? I think that's been done.

Because I would consider a less likely course of events and then do my best to make them seem plausible. With something like this there are an infinite number of twists and turns and combinations of events at your disposal.

Since this hasn't happened and isn't likely to happen, I think that's as good a way to approach it as any. The problem is there so many "what ifs" -- you could go on all day.

Maybe it is God. He's changed his mind -- and he's decided to give us ONE more chance -- so he drops in for the last time to tell us to get our shit together. Like when your mom is driving and she says, "Kids, do I have to pull this car over...?"

Or maybe he's an alien, and he's going to round us all up onto spaceships to make us slaves on a distance planet. Well, maybe not. I'm not into science fiction -- but I think that one's been done before too.

The other thing is, I think how this might play out comes down to the questions being mostly the same as when you are considering the existence of any God or higher power. That's when things usually get dicey in these discussions. And I know that's what you're trying to avoid...


By all means keep brainstorming this. If you come up with something good I'll honor you by stealing it and telling everyone I came up with it myself😀

Or maybe I'll say it was divine inspiration.
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  #40  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
And I wouldn't be too surprised if a certain someone sniffs the word Jesus wafting out over the internet...



I'd be interested to hear what a believer would come up with wrt the scenario. Or would it all be unnecessary chatter... or blasphemy?
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  #41  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call me sweetie now but will you respect me by the next post?



I do understand your premise. I am simply tormenting you...well...because I can!



A superior being among us would not do well in this world. Feeding the multitudes with a can of sardines and a loaf of Wonder Bread is risky business.



Someone believed to be a true miracle worker would undoubtedly convert many non-believers but there will always be those die hard doom and gloom patrons immune to open mindedness and the possibility that there really is more to heaven and hell than meets the eye.



If ever that superior being does arrive I hope they have a cure for ignorance.


I kind of assumed the guy would just blow minds with his powers.

If not, yeah, it wouldn't go far.
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  #42  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call me sweetie now but will you respect me by the next post?

I do understand your premise. I am simply tormenting you...well...because I can!

A superior being among us would not do well in this world. Feeding the multitudes with a can of sardines and a loaf of Wonder Bread is risky business.

Someone believed to be a true miracle worker would undoubtedly convert many non-believers but there will always be those die hard doom and gloom patrons immune to open mindedness and the possibility that there really is more to heaven and hell than meets the eye.

If ever that superior being does arrive I hope they have a cure for ignorance.
Gaines, there's no need to be embarrassed about crapping your pants in public - certainly nobody's going to buy your story of doing it to torment me with its smell.

I don't want to respect you. I want to toss you around, rough you up and have my way with you. It's a hormone thing.
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
Nietzsche wrote:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

This was Nietzsche's observation of the mutilation science had done unto religion. If I could take an oblique shot at answering your question, by answering something you didn't ask, I think the real question under yours is is man divine. Because small miracles happen everyday. People are miraculously cured of disease and injury all the time its just that your perspective seems to observe only the present without the unfathomably vast history that led up to it. I mean if the spontaneous creation of matter and then that matter's coalescence into life and then that life's coalescence into consciousness that then becomes proficient enough to investigate not just the world around it but itself to such a degree that it can begin to modify its own environment, and hence its reality, if that isn't a miracle I'm not sure what is. And I'm using miracle here I'm not sure if its in the sense of its magical or the achievement of the physically impossible but certainly I'm at least using it in the sense that something is so statistically remote as to effectively be impossible.

So perhaps the better question is are we so suffused with miracles, have they become so common that we cease to view them as miracles?

True enough bluewpc - yet even if we start with the wonder of creation drawing us to the conclusion that only a non-contingent being could be the catalyst to all this - how would we receive an individual who claimed this as their identity?

I agree with you entirely - we are capable of so much ourselves that persuading us of divine authenticity would be a bitch.

A miracle caught on film? Camera trickery
Manipulating the weather? - Freak conditions
A voice from the sky? - An alien intelligence trying to dupe us into compliance with their plan for World domination.

I agree - our lives are suffused with small miracles, so is there anything left that would humble us enough to get our attention without suggesting a show of force ?
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  #44  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Gaines, there's no need to be embarrassed about crapping your pants in public - certainly nobody's going to buy your story of doing it to torment me with its smell.

I don't want to respect you. I want to toss you around, rough you up and have my way with you. It's a hormone thing.
Pants? What the hell makes you think I'm wearing pants? I take them off when I post to you. I know what you respect!

Toss me around and rough me up...hah! You'd be hard pressed to make it through the preliminary rounds with me...missy.

Do your worst.

Are we still being intellectual?
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  #45  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:00 AM
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Well human compassion I guess. Hahaha and I'm not being facetious either. I was in a bar last night, this morning with this gal and we ended up falling asleep against another and for while it lasted it was a moment of harmony in the cosmos. There was a sense that what I was experiencing was meaningful. Now, cynicism notwithstanding, I think what I'm suggesting is a subjective mode of existence that we find inherently fulfilling, that if nothing else relieves the dread of existence. Now to mitigate the subjectivity of that I would subscribe that there are in fact very few modes of existence that allows that level of attunement and I think Jung outlined those, at least partially, in his archetypes.

So long story short. I think what would grab our attention would be someone who is able to exemplify the proper mode of existence throughout its stages, from birth to death. And I know I'm kind of dodging your question but I find the idea of proving divinity to be a futile enterprise to people because there are always going to be people who disagree no matter what. Its like look its not about proving someone divine its about not being so damn cynical that you scoff at the possibility of divinity, the responsibility lies in the individual, not the masses.

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  #46  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
Pants? What the hell makes you think I'm wearing pants? I take them off when I post to you. I know what you respect!

Toss me around and rough me up...hah! You'd be hard pressed to make it through the preliminary rounds with me...missy.

Do your worst.

Are we still being intellectual?
The rest of us at the table are still being intellectual - you were lifted down from your high chair for flinging pudding at the guests.

And as for your preliminary rounds - just let me know when you intend to start. I'll brace myself for the thrust of your intellect.
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
The rest of us at the table are still being intellectual - you were lifted down from your high chair for flinging pudding at the guests.

And as for your preliminary rounds - just let me know when you intend to start. I'll brace myself for the thrust of your intellect.
Little girl the thrust of my intellect will make you bark.
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  #48  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:20 AM
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No, it really won't darling.

Your experience is clearly limited to dogs.
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  #49  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I'd be interested to hear what a believer would come up with wrt the scenario. Or would it all be unnecessary chatter... or blasphemy?
Interests me too. Every established religion has an accepted form of their deity.

What if the newcomer didn't conform to any of them - yet espoused the same principles?
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Interests me too. Every established religion has an accepted form of their deity.



What if the newcomer didn't conform to any of them - yet espoused the same principles?


Yes, and what if he conformed to the commonality in all of them. Transcended the menial differences and united then transformed all of humanity into something none of us could have imagined.

Hey, some sharp person should write a novel like that.😀

Or try to anyway...
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  #51  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Yes, and what if he conformed to the commonality in all of them. Transcended the menial differences and united then transformed all of humanity into something none of us could have imagined.

Hey, some sharp person should write a novel like that.��

Or try to anyway...
Mitts off B.P - i'm doing all the pedalling here.

Actually, there already has been one who tried to transcend the menial differences and unite them:

"There is only one religion - the religion of love.
There is only one language, the language of the heart.
There is only one caste, the caste of humanity.
There is only one law, the law of karma.
There is only one God and He is omnipresent."

Sri Sathya Sai Baba 1926-2011

He claimed to be the embodiment of the divine. He never travelled. Millions attest to his miracles. Various trials by media wrote him off as a trickster. Half the World hasn't heard of him or tried to engage with what he said. He honoured all religions - saying the 'form' was of no importance - only the understanding of what it meant.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:24 AM
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I would hope a truly transcendent or enlightened being would do more than claim.

Much like your story of showing your boy through actions...

Only these actions would have much deeper world and reality changing consequences.

At least, that's what it would take for me to believe. In fact, it wouldn't be 'believing' or faith at all. It would just be real.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:26 AM
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Put up or shut up.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:35 AM
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Jiddu Krishnamurti was also, by his and many other accounts, and enlightened being.

Near the end of his life he said (paraphrasing): all these talks and travels and teachings, and in the end I failed to transform even one other person...

Powerful, and ultimately useless to anyone but himself.
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Jiddu Krishnamurti was also, by his and many other accounts, and enlightened being.

Near the end of his life he said (paraphrasing): all these talks and travels and teachings, and in the end I failed to transform even one other person...

Powerful, and ultimately useless to anyone but himself.
An enlightened being and an avatar are not the same thing - an avatar is saying he is god in the physical form.

With reference to Sai Baba - he left a considerable legacy behind and lived out his own message from cradle to grave.

There were alleged but unsubstantiated claims of sexual misconduct, possibly par for the course for anybody set up on a pedestal.

I wonder how a Jesus-type figure would be construed today if he slept in an orange grove with twelve other men and consorted with prostitutes and tax collectors? Would we look for a message or just look for flaws?
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
An enlightened being and an avatar are not the same thing - an avatar is saying he is god in the physical form.



With reference to Sai Baba - he left a considerable legacy behind and lived out his own message from cradle to grave.



There were alleged but unsubstantiated claims of sexual misconduct, possibly par for the course for anybody set up on a pedestal.



I wonder how a Jesus-type figure would be construed today if he slept in an orange grove with twelve other men and consorted with prostitutes and tax collectors? Would we look for a message or just look for flaws?


Obviously he wasn't the embodiment of God then. That Sri guy. I didn't look him up, I already know what I'll find.

It's impossible to put a second coming of Christ (or whatever) into context here in the modern age. When he supposedly lived, there wasn't mass media or communication. For him to make any headway his agenda would have to be clearer, and he would basically have to prove it through actions.

It's always funny to me why these 'sons of Gods' were always so cryptic about it. Oh yeah, I get the 'you have to work for it' thing, but that just seems like a cop-out to me.

So, I don't believe in avatars, and enlightened people are useless to everyone but themselves ultimately.

To answer your question: that fucker better 'bring it!'
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:32 PM
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And by today's standards, what Jesus said was pretty obvious. The words in red are veiled but the meaning should be pretty clear to most modern humans. But even his disciples, who witnessed many of his miracles and sat for his teachings didn't really get it. I mean, Simon Peter still cut the soldiers ear off in an attempt to save Jesus from arrest. What a dumbass! Was he stupid? Or not listening at all to what Jesus said?

Then Paul goes off and starts a church, in direct contradiction to the true teachings of Christ. WTF?!?!

Now we have all this bullshit... and a lot of bullshit through the centuries of people doing almost exactly what Jesus told them NOT to do!!!

Godamn people are stupid!

So yeah, a new guy better account for this shit like Gaines said earlier.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:33 PM
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Mitts off...
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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This is the bitch of it though BP - how would we know?

Take Cliff Richards for example. Clean living, donated millions to charity, appeared to be a person without vice. Allegations were made. The press piled on him. It took more than two years to prove his innocence - and the slur will remain forever.

I don't think there is any potential for a deity in human form to be immune to our default position of tearing down and dissecting for the reasons I listed before.

Myers suggested there could be another, more compelling way forward, but all I can find are plot holes.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
No, I can't imagine it playing out any other way either.

I think that people who are of faith would not associate this person with their preconceived idea of what their god looks like - and reject this person as a 'false god'.

I think people who have a prosperous life and pride themselves on their own autonomy would prefer to ignore messages of 'loving and helping their fellow man' - even if they unconsciously recognised this person as an exceptional being .

I think many would follow the flow of the common herd - if he was crucified by the media as being a charlatan, they would join the ranks of cynicism and ridicule just to fit in - be part of the smart crew.

I think existing religions would send their envoys to scrutinise him - and if his message in any way threatened their own religious hierarchy or conflicted with their espoused doctrine, he would be rejected.

I think any amount of abusing him would be considered 'a test of his divinity' - because he can save himself right? Y'know - he could flatten us with some celestial artillery if he is who he claims to be.

But...

What if someone else came? Someone who applauded greed and selfishness - who promises you more for caring less.

What if this person will happily oblige you with any show of power you want and indulge you with the material gain you strive for? All you have to do is abandon your ethical conscience .

What then?

So what about changing the MO?

Wouldn't any attempt to do that make our superior being less than perfect?
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GRACE GABRIEL

Last edited by Grace Gabriel; 05-13-2017 at 01:12 PM..
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