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Darwin got it wrong.

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Old 08-15-2018, 02:28 PM
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Default Darwin got it wrong.


Do entropy and evolution coexist?

In the evolutionary scheme of things, the strong survive. In a universe where temperatures range over millions of degrees, where pressures range from a vacuum to the compression of light itself, in a black hole; where energy radiates through space, passing through people and planets with enough power to alter DNA; it would seem that the highest evolutionary forms would be those that survive under the widest range of conditions.

That's not us. We require a precarious mix of the perfect temperature (within an infinitesimally narrow band of about 180 degrees, out of billions), just enough pressure to keep our eyeballs from popping out of our heads, but not enough to crush our organs, and we must be fed a steady stream of the proper balance of rocks and dirt, via plants and animals, while being shielded from the cosmic rays which give us life and try to kill us. We are fragile beings, indeed, and unlikely candidates for widespread distribution throughout the Universe.

Bacteria, now - there's some tough sons-a-bitches. A few cells hanging out in water so hot it would explode, were it not under the pressure of five miles of seawater above it. Absolute darkness; toxic, corrosive chemicals; no food - yet these little bastards thrive.

They're also found under the ice, buried for millions of years below glaciers miles thick, no oxygen, no light - yet they live.

They think they've spotted sign of them in meteorites.

So who's highest up the evolutionary ladder? Ourselves, whose very existence, under Darwinism, flies in the face of the law of entropy; or those simple creatures who have evolved to take what the Universe gives them, and walk away stronger?

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Old 08-15-2018, 02:34 PM
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I need a good night's sleep and at least two cups of coffee; then I'll get back to you.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:39 PM
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I know that several experiments have been carried out where bacteria has been attached to the outside of space shuttles for more than a year - the result always being that they have flourished and multiplied in space.

.....shit...what was the question again?

Oh yeah. Some research (not sure how valid or fluffy) suggests that superbugs can and have been introduced to the Earth via meteorites and space debris. Potentially, we could be wiped out with viruses and bacteria that we have no resistance to.

To get back to your question - if we are currently in a global panic about issuing antibiotics bcause viruses are mutating and becoming impervious to them, then these microscopic organisms are better equipped to adapt and beat the odds than we are.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:40 PM
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Of course he did.
I knew this all along. Damn it I am a genius.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
I know that several experiments have been carried out where bacteria has been attached to the outside of space shuttles for more than a year - the result always being that they have flourished and multiplied in space.

.....shit...what was the question again?

Oh yeah. Some research (not sure how valid or fluffy) suggests that superbugs can and have been introduced to the Earth via meteorites and space debris. Potentially, we could be wiped out with viruses and bacteria that we have no resistance to.

To get back to your question - if we are currently in a global panic about issuing antibiotics bcause viruses are mutating and becoming impervious to them, then these microscopic organisms are better equipped to adapt and beat the odds than we are.
Yes. Survival of the fittest, and neatly following the law of entropy. If we started out some fantastically complex beings, requiring a tight combination of specific circumstances to live, it stands to reason that as entropy took effect, our simpler and simpler forms would be the ones to survive the cataclysms of the Universe, until we were just extremely tough little guys, spread throughout the cosmos from Hell to breakfast.

Now to consciousness. While out physical form would be simplified, our consciousness would continue to evolve upward, not being bound by the laws of physics. So can bacteria out-think us? Do we seem like a bunch of unruly school-children to them, crashing around in our ignorance?

What if the smartest fucker in the room is the bacteria under your fingernails?
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Mr. Ed said I should use his signature, since he's not anymore. In honor of his good friend Nok, here it is: "As far as smoking a cigar," she said, "I'd not know where to start or how to start." "It's simple," said I, "You light one end and chew on the other and hope to meet in the middle."
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:13 PM
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UK has just emerged from a heatwave - perfect conditions to multiply the flea and tick population. As a pet owner, my dogs and cats have received three upgrades of flea/tick treatment this year because these parasites build a resistance so quickly to our pesticides.

The most incredible ability to adapt - and look at us, still scratching our heads over cancer and allergic responses to things as fundamental as grass spores and pollen.

Disease is our greatest threat - look at the pandemics of bird flu, ebola etc. It seems entirelty possible that something plague-like could reduce our numbers in the millions.

Interestingly (and a bit off topic) it was discovered that a significant proportion of people were immune to the HIV virus. Tracing their genetic heritage revealed that they had an immune boost which was developed by their ancestors surviving the plague and building an immunity - this change in cell structure making them impervious to the Aids virus.

Are we not strengthening and honing the ability of bacteria to constantly mutate through being so obsessively clean? Everything advertised as killing 99.9% of bacteria....we're left with no resistance to anything and superbugs are the result.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:27 PM
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And another thing...

(I'm speeding on coffee here)

If vaccines and antidotes are essentially a controlled amount of the virus/poison to stimulate our ability to build antibodies - then surely being exposed to a moderate level of bacteria does the same? This obsession with clinically clean surfaces and widespread use of bleach is disabling us.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Do entropy and evolution coexist?

In the evolutionary scheme of things, the strong survive. In a universe where temperatures range over millions of degrees, where pressures range from a vacuum to the compression of light itself, in a black hole; where energy radiates through space, passing through people and planets with enough power to alter DNA; it would seem that the highest evolutionary forms would be those that survive under the widest range of conditions.

That's not us. We require a precarious mix of the perfect temperature (within an infinitesimally narrow band of about 180 degrees, out of billions), just enough pressure to keep our eyeballs from popping out of our heads, but not enough to crush our organs, and we must be fed a steady stream of the proper balance of rocks and dirt, via plants and animals, while being shielded from the cosmic rays which give us life and try to kill us. We are fragile beings, indeed, and unlikely candidates for widespread distribution throughout the Universe.

Bacteria, now - there's some tough sons-a-bitches. A few cells hanging out in water so hot it would explode, were it not under the pressure of five miles of seawater above it. Absolute darkness; toxic, corrosive chemicals; no food - yet these little bastards thrive.

They're also found under the ice, buried for millions of years below glaciers miles thick, no oxygen, no light - yet they live.

They think they've spotted sign of them in meteorites.

So who's highest up the evolutionary ladder? Ourselves, whose very existence, under Darwinism, flies in the face of the law of entropy; or those simple creatures who have evolved to take what the Universe gives them, and walk away stronger?
Now they are walkin'?

They might want to give that mode some more consideration seein' where it has got us.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Yes. Survival of the fittest, and neatly following the law of entropy. If we started out some fantastically complex beings, requiring a tight combination of specific circumstances to live, it stands to reason that as entropy took effect, our simpler and simpler forms would be the ones to survive the cataclysms of the Universe, until we were just extremely tough little guys, spread throughout the cosmos from Hell to breakfast.

Now to consciousness. While out physical form would be simplified, our consciousness would continue to evolve upward, not being bound by the laws of physics. So can bacteria out-think us? Do we seem like a bunch of unruly school-children to them, crashing around in our ignorance?

What if the smartest fucker in the room is the bacteria under your fingernails?

My smartest fuckers are wearin' booger toupees.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
And another thing...

(I'm speeding on coffee here)

If vaccines and antidotes are essentially a controlled amount of the virus/poison to stimulate our ability to build antibodies - then surely being exposed to a moderate level of bacteria does the same? This obsession with clinically clean surfaces and widespread use of bleach is disabling us.
It's true. I was raised on a farm miles from any hospital, with five brothers and sisters. We hand-milked our cow, didn't pasteurize anything, raised and butchered our own meat, grew our own vegetables in soil fertilized by animal shit, not chemicals, and we were all healthy as horses. We were exposed to every possible kind of pathogen (except maybe Ebola), and we shook it off and kept going.

Nowadays, after years and years of dosing with antibiotics for every minor ailment, wiping our counters and doorknobs obsessively with bleach and bug-killers of every sort, we have no natural resistance to anything, while the bugs have gotten stronger with every encounter.

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Now they are walkin'?

They might want to give that mode some more consideration seein' where it has got us.
They don't have to walk far, Nick. We'll carry them to the Moon, and farther.

Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
My smartest fuckers are wearin' booger toupees.
.

You lost me again, Nick.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:30 PM
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[QUOTE=Prodigalson



You lost me again, Nick.

[/QUOTE]


Ya know how a vaccination is a micro dose of the ailment to prod (heh) the immune system into crafting an antiailment, right?

And ya know how you wrote the bad ass bacteria is under the fingernails, right?

And ya know how some people take advantage of a finger's size relation to nostril openings to remove viscous mucous (hey, sometimes a Neti Pot is not to hand, mate), yeah?

Voila! The smartest fuckers get to try on booger toupees while being DNA sampled by the internal defense system.


Yes, yes - I know. You are glad you asked for clarification.

No need to thank me.

Helping out is all the reward I could ever want.


Now excuse me while I do some finger flickin'.


Yowza! Stuck that one to the lampshade.

Better turn it around before the wife sees (she don't always appreciate my Homeopathic antics).
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:17 PM
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Default Darwin got it wrong.

Guys like Howard Bloom and Paul Stamets believe that bacteria and fungi evolved us (and everything else) to serve them, and that we are mere puppets to the true kings of natural selection.


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Old 08-18-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
Ya know how a vaccination is a micro dose of the ailment to prod (heh) the immune system into crafting an antiailment, right?

And ya know how you wrote the bad ass bacteria is under the fingernails, right?

And ya know how some people take advantage of a finger's size relation to nostril openings to remove viscous mucous (hey, sometimes a Neti Pot is not to hand, mate), yeah?

Voila! The smartest fuckers get to try on booger toupees while being DNA sampled by the internal defense system.


Yes, yes - I know. You are glad you asked for clarification.

No need to thank me.

Helping out is all the reward I could ever want.


Now excuse me while I do some finger flickin'.


Yowza! Stuck that one to the lampshade.

Better turn it around before the wife sees (she don't always appreciate my Homeopathic antics).
That's pretty much what I was thinking, Nick, but I just had to hear it explained.

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Guys like Howard Bloom and Paul Stamets believe that bacteria and fungi evolved us (and everything else) to serve them, and that we are mere puppets to the true kings of natural selection.


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I think they may be right, but what does that say about universal consciousness, and the ever-living soul? It seems that, to accomplish such a long range, far-reaching plan, there would have to be a guiding force, a common thought that is shared by all the members of the group, over eons of time - kind of like the "all is one" proponents say our consciousness is, divorced from our bodies.

Could bacteria all be part of a huge conscious network, a singular being, as it were, distributed throughout the Universe, aware, intelligent?

That would be the definition of "omnipresent", would it not? And omniscient? Hell, God is our bugs. No wonder he knows everything.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
That's pretty much what I was thinking, Nick, but I just had to hear it explained.







I think they may be right, but what does that say about universal consciousness, and the ever-living soul? It seems that, to accomplish such a long range, far-reaching plan, there would have to be a guiding force, a common thought that is shared by all the members of the group, over eons of time - kind of like the "all is one" proponents say our consciousness is, divorced from our bodies.



Could bacteria all be part of a huge conscious network, a singular being, as it were, distributed throughout the Universe, aware, intelligent?



That would be the definition of "omnipresent", would it not? And omniscient? Hell, God is our bugs. No wonder he knows everything.


It says possibly that what humans experience as the idea of an ever living soul is nothing more than a series of chemical reactions facilitated by organisms that benefit from our “ideas, feelings, and experiences,” on the subject. I suggest you take the heroes dose of mushrooms and ask the same question if you need a reminder.

Maybe the bugs are getting us smart enough to build space ships so they can colonize other planets.




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Old 08-18-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
It says possibly that what humans experience as the idea of an ever living soul is nothing more than a series of chemical reactions facilitated by organisms that benefit from our “ideas, feelings, and experiences,” on the subject. I suggest you take the heroes dose of mushrooms and ask the same question if you need a reminder.

Maybe the bugs are getting us smart enough to build space ships so they can colonize other planets.




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Oh, I took plenty of hero's doses of mushrooms, back in the day, while picking them straight out of the fields. I came away with no answers, only questions.

But could it be an accident that these organisms facilitate this? It would seem there is an agenda, with an immense time span, to get us to that point. A coordinated effort between simple creatures widely separated, without normal means of communication, over eons of time, would seem to imply a previously unknown connective link - communication by "thought", over vast distances, which also implies intelligence - or not.

I suppose, with an infinite number of universes, every single permutation has to happen. Some will be nonsensical, while others will accidentally have such symmetry and beauty as to seem impossible without some kind of guiding hand.

I've "died" and come back. I saw some impressive things (basically, that heroic mushroom trip, times millions) - but I can't say I learned a damned thing from it, because, as you said, bp, all of our thoughts and feelings are but electro-chemical reactions.

Kind of sad, in a way, to produce such false hope, but good, also for those who believe, because it gives them strength and guides their way. That can't always be bad.
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Oh, I took plenty of hero's doses of mushrooms, back in the day, while picking them straight out of the fields. I came away with no answers, only questions.

But could it be an accident that these organisms facilitate this? It would seem there is an agenda, with an immense time span, to get us to that point. A coordinated effort between simple creatures widely separated, without normal means of communication, over eons of time, would seem to imply a previously unknown connective link - communication by "thought", over vast distances, which also implies intelligence - or not.

I suppose, with an infinite number of universes, every single permutation has to happen. Some will be nonsensical, while others will accidentally have such symmetry and beauty as to seem impossible without some kind of guiding hand.

I've "died" and come back. I saw some impressive things (basically, that heroic mushroom trip, times millions) - but I can't say I learned a damned thing from it, because, as you said, bp, all of our thoughts and feelings are but electro-chemical reactions.

Kind of sad, in a way, to produce such false hope, but good, also for those who believe, because it gives them strength and guides their way. That can't always be bad.
Hi there Prodigalson I see you mention a trip on magic mushrooms LOL
Not that I ever ventured that way haha.
Can I ask what questions did you come out with?
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Oh, I took plenty of hero's doses of mushrooms, back in the day, while picking them straight out of the fields. I came away with no answers, only questions.



But could it be an accident that these organisms facilitate this? It would seem there is an agenda, with an immense time span, to get us to that point. A coordinated effort between simple creatures widely separated, without normal means of communication, over eons of time, would seem to imply a previously unknown connective link - communication by "thought", over vast distances, which also implies intelligence - or not.



I suppose, with an infinite number of universes, every single permutation has to happen. Some will be nonsensical, while others will accidentally have such symmetry and beauty as to seem impossible without some kind of guiding hand.



I've "died" and come back. I saw some impressive things (basically, that heroic mushroom trip, times millions) - but I can't say I learned a damned thing from it, because, as you said, bp, all of our thoughts and feelings are but electro-chemical reactions.



Kind of sad, in a way, to produce such false hope, but good, also for those who believe, because it gives them strength and guides their way. That can't always be bad.


Read Global Brain by Howard Bloom. I’m not saying he’s right, but if he is it’s the answer to your question from a evolutionary biology stand-point.

Basically, biological organisms select not only for the betterment of themselves and their kin, but on certain levels, for their social hierarchy, or species, etc.

Otherwise, in a simple way, change is the directive. Not from some higher power or organization, but change, adaption, produces chaos and disorder in parts of a system, and chaos and disorder are good for producing feeding troughs for micro-organisms. This is why humans can’t solve the problem of war.

So the bacteria, fungus, and viruses that produce the most chaos win evolutionarily. They reproduce and push out more stable forms.

It’s turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down...

And the awesome feeling of oneness and being and religiosity we as humans experience leads to more chaos.

If the micro-organisms visited you one day and said: “if you just keep doing the shit you’re doing we’ll give you $100 and an awesome sub sandwich,” would you agree? No...

But if they gave you consciousness and incredible feelings of love, pleasure, and spiritual ecstasy you would. And you wouldn’t even know you were being duped. You’d go happily to the cross and let those fuckers nail you up. On some level it has to be a win-win or the system would collapse.


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Old 08-18-2018, 06:44 PM
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Also, find the documentary The Kingdom: how fungi made our world, and watch it with this theory in mind.


...mind blowing.


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Old 08-18-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
Hi there Prodigalson I see you mention a trip on magic mushrooms LOL
Not that I ever ventured that way haha.
Can I ask why questions did you come out with?
I came out of it even less sure of what was real, or I guess you could say more of a sense of unreality. I saw that our problems here on Earth are but a tiny fraction of a grain of sand's worth of all the potential things to worry about, and so aren't worth the drama and energy we expend on them.

I came away knowing that, no matter how hard you work at something, or care about something, the outcome of just about everything hinges to a certain extent on luck and chance, so don't get too invested in the results. You can do everything right, cover all your bases, leave nothing to chance - and your wife can still up and leave you, taking everything you've got. You just can't let it destroy you, because in the universal scheme of things, it ain't nothing but a thing.

Or maybe I figured that out twenty years after my wife did that to me. Or remembered it after knowing it from dying. I don't know.

Brian, I'll get back to you later.
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I came out of it even less sure of what was real, or I guess you could say more of a sense of unreality. I saw that our problems here on Earth are but a tiny fraction of a grain of sand's worth of all the potential things to worry about, and so aren't worth the drama and energy we expend on them.



I came away knowing that, no matter how hard you work at something, or care about something, the outcome of just about everything hinges to a certain extent on luck and chance, so don't get too invested in the results. You can do everything right, cover all your bases, leave nothing to chance - and your wife can still up and leave you, taking everything you've got. You just can't let it destroy you, because in the universal scheme of things, it ain't nothing but a thing.



Or maybe I figured that out twenty years after my wife did that to me. Or remembered it after knowing it from dying. I don't know.



Brian, I'll get back to you later.


This is the perfect example of what I’m proposing. You were offered a glimpse of the real world and found that in comparison your existence is but minutiae. The mushrooms showed you what you’re up against and you felt like a baby next to billions of years of evolution.

Humans are flowers in the world. Pretty, but dispensable. They attract prey, and bumble about thinking consciousness and intelligence are the pinnacle of Gods creation.

Meanwhile, God isn’t necessary, and the world is using us to evolve.


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Old 08-18-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post

Humans are flowers in the world. Pretty, but dispensable. They attract prey, and bumble about thinking consciousness and intelligence are the pinnacle of Gods creation.

Meanwhile, God isn’t necessary, and the world is using us to evolve.


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Hey, the Dog's Arse Messiah said something very similar to this last night while I was sponging some shit off his fur. And he said to tell you God IS the world, and if you don't stop dissing Him he's going to kick your ass.
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2018, 03:39 AM
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[QUOTE=flyingtart

God IS the world, and if you don't stop dissing Him he's going to kick your ass.

[/QUOTE]


Does this not result in God kicking His Ass?

Not that I find any fault with a self abusing God, mind you.
Hell, for all I know God may need a bit of off the beaten track stimulation just to feel He is still in the God game.

I mean it must get lonely if not disorienting being the Sole Big Kahuna, right?


'Course I could be far off the mark what with being human and fallible and all.


In any event I do feel compassion for The Deity in whatever form He/She is presented.


Sometimes the Right Thing to do is easy to perceive, eh?
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
Are we not strengthening and honing the ability of bacteria to constantly mutate through being so obsessively clean? Everything advertised as killing 99.9% of bacteria....we're left with no resistance to anything and superbugs are the result.
There's another downside and it affects children the most. Antibiotics kill all the beneficial bacteria in the digestive system, and the theory is that's a contributing factor to childhood obesity.

I did some work for a company the makes antibacterial soap and dispensers for hospitals and healthcare environments. That's really the only place you need all the antibacterial hand cleaners. Studies show that plain old soap is fine everywhere else and that it's really more about how you wash your hands and for how long that matters.

Along those lines, is anyone else totally grossed out by those signs in restrooms that say "Employees must wash hands..." You really need a sign??? Eeeeewwww.
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Old 08-19-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
.



Along those lines, is anyone else totally grossed out by those signs in restrooms that say "Employees must wash hands..." You really need a sign??? Eeeeewwww.

I try not to wash my hands whenever possible. Yeah, sometimes I have to break down and do it, but rarely. I believe (like Grace said) all this hand-washing and coddling is leading to the pusification of our western society.

I mean, we’re actually having anti war demonstrations in cities across America like the dirty hippies had in the 60’s. Disgusting.

I say, unless your finger breaks through the toilet paper, you’re good to go back to work!



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Old 08-19-2018, 12:09 PM
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Some call me paranoid, but people like you are the reason I wear latex gloves and a surgical mask when I leave the house.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
Some call me paranoid, but people like you are the reason I wear latex gloves and a surgical mask when I leave the house.


Did you ever see that Myth Busters episode where they swabbed all kinds of places and things for fecal matter?

Man, it’s everywhere. We’re swimming in it.


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Old 08-19-2018, 02:35 PM
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Sure and most of it is harmless. The thing is, harmful bacteria like e. coli and rotovirus, giarda etc. are spread through fecal matter, so yeah, you should wash your hands...
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:48 PM
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I tried. I tried and tried to not let a conversation with a plumber about hand washing and fecal matter lead to this, and I'm still trying, but goddamnit, it's breaking free on its own, and I can't stop it: What are the three things you must know to be a plumber?

1) Payday's Friday.

2) Shit runs downhill, and

3)Don't lick your fingers.

I will go chastise myself immediately.
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:33 PM
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The one thing I miss since becoming a plumber is licking the French fry salt off my fingers.


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Old 08-19-2018, 09:20 PM
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I won’t ask what you lick it off now.
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