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  #31  
Old 05-09-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Izzyn View Post
OK, since this topic is being raised again... What is really demoralizing is hearing members - and I mean long-time members, not just you Agatha - admit to opting out of the reciprocity rule, and then go on to receive mountains of feedback. Hardly anyone in the Fiction section with 4+ replies is a regular critic of others work. Wish I knew their secret...

I've only been here a few weeks, so if anyone has another forum they could recommend, I'm all for it. PM me.

I clicked on a few stories earlier with no replies and one of yours had been deleted. That's why it hasn't been critiqued lol You probably have to be more patient than that.
There are a few on there with a lot of replies but they're generally shorter posts. Easier to read, easier to crit, easier to get responses, I guess.

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  #32  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:31 AM
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Izzyn, I had the same as Rincewind - if you pop it up again I'll take a look as I can see you've offered lots of helpful critiques. Time is a big factor, sometimes it takes me a week to get to critique a piece.
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  #33  
Old 05-09-2013, 12:00 PM
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I think like with most regulars the amount I critique varies. Right now I am writing more but when I have a gap I try to do a decent critique everyday.

Sometimes life does just get in the way. I've got several pieces that have not had a single comment. And others it has taken weeks to get one.
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  #34  
Old 05-09-2013, 02:51 PM
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It is surprising, some of the things I read on this thread. I don't think you can write effective fiction if you don't read fiction. It doesn't take too long to read most the pieces on here and usually not more than a few minutes at most to post some sort of comment. I don't usually correct punctuation, figuring that will be corrected in re-writes,but try to give the writer an idea of the feeling his or her piece gave me. I must admit, I try to remain positive when criticizing something, though I won't lie about what I feel.
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  #35  
Old 05-09-2013, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Easier to read, easier to crit, easier to get responses, I guess.
If this is the real reason why, then I still need to find somewhere else.

I think the main issue with feedback is, I want to know if it was actually read, not just clicked on. I always ask if it was boring, tl;dr, or hard to understand, or whatever, trying to hint at it. Maybe I should just start asking people to post "read!"

I deleted the posts with zero replies because they were mocking me in their apparent epidemic. I figured, what's the use, nobody wants to see them anyway. Guess it was a bit of a tantrum, but it was just annoying to see them there.

... though the fact that you bothered to click on them now does seem like positive reinforcement for complaining...
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  #36  
Old 05-10-2013, 03:06 AM
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Sometimes it helps to ask for specifics when posting a piece: if you're looking for people to tell you how they fell about the piece overall, say so at the beginning of the post! If you're looking for more in-depth things, tell them!
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  #37  
Old 05-10-2013, 04:11 AM
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If you have deleted first posts then that may explain why.

I crit when I am editing. The phase I am about to enter. When I read a post I often like to go away, think about it and then comment a few days later. It gives a fairer critique. So nothing gets on my, not very ample, tits more than to come back having spent that time and find the post has been deleted. I won't respond nor will I read any more by that poster.

This week I have had valuable comments on work I posted weeks ago. It has arrived just in time because I am about to edit that chapter. Some pieces have a lot of comments but I have work going back more than a year with none. It can be disheartening but I have found putting the question in the thread title has helped get more and also putting the word count in.

Last edited by AnyaKimlun; 05-10-2013 at 04:16 AM..
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  #38  
Old 05-10-2013, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Izzyn View Post
If this is the real reason why, then I still need to find somewhere else.

I think the main issue with feedback is, I want to know if it was actually read, not just clicked on. I always ask if it was boring, tl;dr, or hard to understand, or whatever, trying to hint at it. Maybe I should just start asking people to post "read!"
We specifically ask people not to post one liners, so that may not be ideal. Do you always post in Members Only? That and the adult section are the only place on the forum where every hit has to be by another member. If not, it could be web bots and spam bots and browsers all racking up your hit count, making you think people aren't bothered.

Originally Posted by Izzyn View Post
I deleted the posts with zero replies because they were mocking me in their apparent epidemic. I figured, what's the use, nobody wants to see them anyway. Guess it was a bit of a tantrum, but it was just annoying to see them there.

... though the fact that you bothered to click on them now does seem like positive reinforcement for complaining...
Not really. When I have my critique days I often go for threads with zero responses. As a result of you joining in on this thread, you've promoted yourself and people have gone to look for your work, but as it's deleted you've missed out on potential feedback.

It's also worth remembering that at weekends, Friday through Sunday, the forum is always that bit quieter because people are enjoying their weekends. They may dip in and out of the forum for a quick social, but I know in my case it's very rare that I have more than thirty minutes at a time to myself on the weekend, so I normally won't even attempt to critique.

Saying you want to find a better forum is all well and good, but as another member who moderates on another forum has said the same issues are raised there.

We certainly want to raise the profile of giving and getting useful critique on WB, but sometimes there's little the forum can do in the face of human nature. The OP for the thread has admitted herself she wants feedback from people, but is not prepared, in most cases to leave any herself. It's a losing battle. Two steps forward, three steps back.

I liked the suggestion that for every bit of work we post, we give two critques. I think that is brilliant.

Last edited by Redlorry; 05-10-2013 at 11:54 PM..
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  #39  
Old 05-10-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Agatha Christie View Post
As I said in my message, others don't get critique either, not just me. But lots of people apparently read my stuff. If they go that far, surely a comment takes a few seconds.

PS. I rarely read anything. I don't find material that resonates with me and encourages me to read. First paragraph and I'm bored. Not always the writer's fault so I don't want to keep giving feedback of that nature...not fair to demoralise writers because I don't like reading.
The whole point of trying to write good is to engage people's attention. If you're bored with the first paragraph of my writing, I want to know, and I want to know why. That's the only way I can improve.

A lack of any response is more demoralizing than a negative response.
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  #40  
Old 05-10-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JustcallmeEd View Post
The whole point of trying to write good...
Is to learn to write well? But that's totally the aggravating point, Ed. I'm with you.

Anyway, I've tried the suggestions, from being specific about what I want, to just waiting a week, to (obviously) giving more critiques. It seems to be either that I'm chronically unlucky, or maybe that my stuff just doesn't appeal to this audience. And since I've only had three people respond, total, I'm leaning toward the latter. In the end I can't help but feel it's a case of "shame on me" for trying to get involved with and solicit from the wrong group of individuals. There is a core group of critics in the Fiction section, but I feel like I'm hawking flax seeds to the Mountain Dew crowd.

I guess I'll still critique, but I know better than to bother myself with posting, now.

Later.
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  #41  
Old 05-11-2013, 12:38 AM
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Actually I think this is simply because our user base is rather small. Remember, most people on here are either lurking (just looking at stuff) or are busy the majority of the time.
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  #42  
Old 05-11-2013, 02:18 AM
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I can never stress enough how important it is to offer critiques! Not just for other writers but for our own benefit too. Critiquing is a skill that can be learned, improved and applied to our own work. We have some helpful guidelines in the FAQs to get people started. Plus, the more you do it, the more you'll absorb when reading other work (published or not).

I've done it - I've pointed out niggles in other peoples writing about ten times before something finally clicks and I think 'holy cow, that's what I do.' Then, finaaaally, I know how to correct my chapter, or all of them. Plus, because I have actively understood what is happening, I've learnt and retained so much more information. It's one thing to be told what doesn't work right, but it is another to actively understand why it doesn't work.

So yes, offering critiques is just as important as getting them. Offering two for every one piece of work you post is great - offering more would be better

Also, there's a lot of members who actively critique for each other behind the scenes. So if there's someone you get along with, if you like the comments they make and feel confident you can help them in return, then don't hesitate to drop them a line and ask if they want to swap. They might say no, but it's worth a try.
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  #43  
Old 05-11-2013, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AnyaKimlun View Post
I crit when I am editing. The phase I am about to enter. When I read a post I often like to go away, think about it and then comment a few days later. It gives a fairer critique. So nothing gets on my, not very ample, tits more than to come back having spent that time and find the post has been deleted. I won't respond nor will I read any more by that poster.
.
Might help sometimes if you let the poster know that you are intending to crit at a later date?

I agree that deleting first posts is not a good thing if someone does it habitually (although I haven't seen anyone who does that here) but I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it occasionally. Sometimes it just happens, you post a piece and regret doing so afterwards, for whatever reason. I don't think other posters should make too much of an issue out of it. Just my take on it.

Last edited by Nadja; 05-11-2013 at 04:43 AM..
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  #44  
Old 05-11-2013, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nadja View Post
In these cases, do you let the poster know that that you are intending to crit? If not, how are they to know? People aren't mind-readers.

I agree it's not a good thing if someone habitually deletes first posts (although I haven't seen anyone on here who does that, anyway) but I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it occasionally. Sometimes it just happens, you post a piece and regret doing so afterwards, for whatever reason. Don't see the point of making an issue over it, really (unless of course the person in question keeps on ignoring you, or is rude or whatever.) Just my take on it.
No I don't but I find most people that delete their first posts do make a habit of it. And I don't make an issue of it, but I pick someone else to crit next time. There are plenty to choose from. I don't see the point in wasting time with a crit that might not be there later and that a person isn't serious about.

Last edited by AnyaKimlun; 05-11-2013 at 04:43 AM..
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  #45  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:51 AM
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Do you yourself comment on the work of others Agatha?

This is a good place for commentary:

Last edited by Firefly; 05-11-2013 at 12:05 PM.. Reason: Removed link
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  #46  
Old 05-11-2013, 12:03 PM
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If I do ever read anything (and I have read poems, when I was writing them) I ALWAYS comment. My rationale is that if I've actually spent my time reading, the writer is definitely gonna hear from me whether they like it or not!!
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  #47  
Old 05-11-2013, 02:11 PM
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I've done it - I've pointed out niggles in other peoples writing about ten times before something finally clicks and I think 'holy cow, that's what I do.' Then, finaaaally, I know how to correct my chapter, or all of them. Plus, because I have actively understood what is happening, I've learnt and retained so much more information. It's one thing to be told what doesn't work right, but it is another to actively understand why it doesn't work.
I've had the same experience -- becoming a better writer/critic of my own work through critiquing others' writing.
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  #48  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:00 AM
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To bleat about getting reads and not feedback and then openly admit to doing virtually none of either yourself is staggeringly arrogant, impetuous and frankly childish Agatha.

Here's another cliche to add to your collection "give and you will receive".
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  #49  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:08 AM
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I don't think that's quite right. There are a lot of submissions that seem to attract perhaps 100, 150, 200 views and yet there are still only about half a dozen comments. I don't think it's anything to do with the 'tit for tat' rationale, except of course if you get involved with some kind of private group where everybody probably says and expects nice things to be said.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:08 AM
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Christ on a skateboard, you didn't even bother tapping a reply to that message!
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:17 AM
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Don't get too worked up about the reads figure. Google and Yahoo bots rack up the reads figure, and I believe that every time someone clicks on your work, even if it's the same person, it adds it up. So if your post is long, and it takes me a few attempts to read it, it will say it's been read 5 or 6 times, but it's just me coming back (Mods, is this correct?)
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:25 AM
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I'll tell you what Agatha, let's do a deal? I have only one story on this site, you will see a comment from me at the end of it to the effect that if anyone feeds back to me I will reciprocate.

So go for it; tell me what you think of the story - it's less than 900 words. Then, at the end of you comment tell me (or place a link) to a story you would like me to read and to comment on and I will gladly do so.

Deal?
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by amberzak
So if your post is long, and it takes me a few attempts to read it, it will say it's been read 5 or 6 times, but it's just me coming back (Mods, is this correct?)
That is correct, as far as I know, yes. And 12 or so replies really isn't that bad when it comes to a piece of writing, considering there are only so many really active members on the boards and each of those have different interests
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:35 AM
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Ratboy. you should see my response by now. may have crossed in the post
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:37 AM
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No, sorry. All I am seeing is an automated bot 'thankyou' response.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:41 AM
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I have not wish to get involved with 'tit for tat.' I am in the midst of writing a fifth novel and I can't really concentrate on reading stuff. All that's in my mind is what I'm going to put in my next chapter. I am very single minded when it comes to writing. I just go for it and stay with it til its finished with no distractions! Sorry
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Agatha Christie View Post
I have not wish to get involved with 'tit for tat.' I am in the midst of writing a fifth novel and I can't really concentrate on reading stuff. All that's in my mind is what I'm going to put in my next chapter. I am very single minded when it comes to writing. I just go for it and stay with it til its finished with no distractions! Sorry
Yet you can tolerate the distractions caused to you by people commenting on your work? How odd.

Basicaly your saying:

"I'm too talented and far too busy with my next opus grande to comment on the the inferior efforts of others, yet I like to vilify them for not commenting on my brilliance."

I refer you back to my first comment in this thread and the offer of reciprocation remains open.
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  #58  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:58 AM
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I'm a great believer in reciprocity and I make an effort to review work whenever I can and generally make a contribution to this site, but I don’t believe that improves my standing when it comes to getting work reviewed – in fact I know it doesn't. Here’s a piece I posted nearly a week ago, it hasn't attracted any comments yet and I have no confidence that it will.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Agatha Christie View Post
As I said in my message, others don't get critique either, not just me. But lots of people apparently read my stuff. If they go that far, surely a comment takes a few seconds.

PS. I rarely read anything. I don't find material that resonates with me and encourages me to read. First paragraph and I'm bored. Not always the writer's fault so I don't want to keep giving feedback of that nature...not fair to demoralise writers because I don't like reading.
I've never met a writer that found reading to be so distasteful...?

It seems to me that you want attention, but feel that others are not good enough to merit the same type of attention you want.

Not a great attitude in a forum that depends on people giving each other help
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:20 AM
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Izzyn: It is to write well. Thanks.
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