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What Christians REALLY Believe

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Old 06-23-2018, 04:17 PM
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Default What Christians REALLY Believe


It occurred to me some time ago that the essence of Christian belief is this:

"The creator of the universe impregnated a teenage virgin, and their son had to be killed to remove a curse that was caused because a woman was tricked into eating a magic piece of fruit by a talking snake."

Rather nonsensical, isn't it?

It's almost as ridiculous as Scientologists who believe they have little aliens inside their body that they need to get rid of and become a "clear" -- but not even as far-fetched.

I don't see how people can believe this nonsense -- except gullibility, stupidity or indoctrination. Those are the only explanations.

Your thoughts on the ridiculous of religions?

P.S. And don't get me started on Islam. I like being alive, and some of them of murderers.

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Old 06-23-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
It occurred to me some time ago that the essence of Christian belief is this:

"The creator of the universe impregnated a teenage virgin, and their son had to be killed to remove a curse that was caused because a woman was tricked into eating a magic piece of fruit by a talking snake."

Rather nonsensical, isn't it?

It's almost as ridiculous as Scientologists who believe they have little aliens inside their body that they need to get rid of and become a "clear" -- but not even as far-fetched.

I don't see how people can believe this nonsense -- except gullibility, stupidity or indoctrination. Those are the only explanations.

Your thoughts on the ridiculous of religions?

P.S. And don't get me started on Islam. I like being alive, and some of them of murderers.
LOL forget Islam it is a very heavy subject.

anyway how is mary gives birth to Jesus and is a virgin?
I am disappointed. aren't you?
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
anyway how is the virgin marry gives birth to Jesus is more urgent to me because that is that is loads of bad.
a big fat lie. I am disappointed. aren't you???
Yup, Christianity is the biggest scam in human history, as far we we know it. They created a consequence (hell), and then offered the solution to escape it (salvation).

What a hoax!

But the marketing might not be so bad, at least for their market, which is people who don't think.
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:48 PM
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It's almost as ridiculous as Scientologists who believe they have little aliens inside their body that they need to get rid of and become a "clear" -- but not even as far-fetched.
what do you mean by that?
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
It occurred to me some time ago that the essence of Christian belief is this:

"The creator of the universe impregnated a teenage virgin, and their son had to be killed to remove a curse that was caused because a woman was tricked into eating a magic piece of fruit by a talking snake."

Rather nonsensical, isn't it?

It's almost as ridiculous as Scientologists who believe they have little aliens inside their body that they need to get rid of and become a "clear" -- but not even as far-fetched.

I don't see how people can believe this nonsense -- except gullibility, stupidity or indoctrination. Those are the only explanations.

Your thoughts on the ridiculous of religions?

P.S. And don't get me started on Islam. I like being alive, and some of them of murderers.

Out of curiosity, would you be able to frame this argument without namecalling and insults?
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:47 PM
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I believe in the scriptures, I believe in Christ. Some of these things are things I can quantify, and some things I have to take as an article of faith.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Out of curiosity, would you be able to frame this argument without namecalling and insults?
Where’s the fun in that?
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Where’s the fun in that?


Ooo... now, now, we are writers are we not?

I can think of several ways to reframe this without insults and name calling.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:17 PM
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So can I, clever clogs. But that would be rubbish trolling.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
So can I, clever clogs. But that would be rubbish trolling.


sí, y podríamos arruinar nuestra reputación.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:30 PM
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Oi, keep the insults in English, si vous plait.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Oi, keep the insults in English, si vous plait.
merci beaucoup
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
sí, y podríamos arruinar nuestra reputación.
que si que no!!!
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
what do you mean by that?
That's what Scientologists believe, if memory serves me well...

A bunch of aliens called Thetans came to Earth on a spaceship and lived in a volcano. It erupted and the Thetans where scattered into the bodies of human beings. Now, the mission of believers is to eradicate these aliens from their bodies to become what they call "Clears". Tom Cruise is apparently a "Clear", meaning he's an advanced member of his religion.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Out of curiosity, would you be able to frame this argument without namecalling and insults?
I have neither name-called nor insulted. I've presented my argument based on facts. For example, the only reasons people can possibly believe in these far-fetched religious stories is either due to gullibility, stupidity, or indoctrination. I see no other option. But if someone wants to take the truth as a insult, that's their issue, not mine.

Since you're a Christian, think of another religion, like Scientology. Don't you think people would either have to be gullible, stupid, or indoctrinated to believe such a ridiculous story as having actually happened? (See my post above if you don't know what Scientologists believe.)
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
That's what Scientologists believe, if memory serves me well...

A bunch of aliens called Thetans came to Earth on a spaceship and lived in a volcano. It erupted and the Thetans where scattered into the bodies of human beings. Now, the mission of believers is to eradicate these aliens from their bodies to become what they call "Clears". Tom Cruise is apparently a "Clear", meaning he's an advanced member of his religion.
That is interesting because there was a program on tv about the church of scientology I watched a while back and Tom Cruise mentioned/shown to be a member.
The whole thing is bonkers and weird.
What makes it more weirder is these Hollywood actors involved with it.
That really put a downer on it.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
That is interesting because there was a program on tv about the church of scientology I watched a while back and Tom Cruise was a member.
The whole thing is bonkers and weird.
What makes it more weirder is these Hollywood actors involved with it.
That really put a downer on it.
Not to mention, it probably really helped the church grow in numbers; for doesn't society idolize and look up to and want to be like celebrities, especially the younger generation?

"Hey Tom Cruise is a Scientologist! Maybe I should become one too!"
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
Not to mention, it probably really helped the church grow in numbers; for doesn't society idolize and look up to and want to be like celebrities, especially the younger generation?

"Hey Tom Cruise is a Scientologist! Maybe I should become one too!"
That is so very true. Maybe he got paid to join and hence boost popularity.
That would make sense but it is still weird.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
I have neither name-called nor insulted. I've presented my argument based on facts. For example, the only reasons people can possibly believe in these far-fetched religious stories is either due to gullibility, stupidity, or indoctrination. I see no other option. But if someone wants to take the truth as a insult, that's their issue, not mine.

Since you're a Christian, think of another religion, like Scientology. Don't you think people would either have to be gullible, stupid, or indoctrinated to believe such a ridiculous story as having actually happened? (See my post above if you don't know what Scientologists believe.)


If you take a fundamentalist view on Christianity, Judaism, or Islam—like these stories are actual fact, then yeah. You’re right. But I don’t think most serious people do that. The idea that any of it “actually” happened is silly. Still, that doesn’t mean there isn’t value in thousands of years of human psychological development and analysis.

If you look at it as a system for maintaining a functioning and stable culture or society, you can see the deep value in such systems.

We may be outgrowing some of the particular schemes, but we still (science) haven’t cracked the core of why so many religious ideas are essentially true. Until we do that, we should be happy that there are Christians whose only barrier between them and killing a bunch of people for sinning is the idea that their God commanded them not to.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:57 AM
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brianpatrick,

I read a book of quotes recently, and one said something like: "The purpose of religion is to prevent the poor from killing the rich."

That astounded me!

Do most people really need to have a belief in a god in order to restrain themselves from killing another human in cold blood?
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
brianpatrick,

I read a book of quotes recently, and one said something like: "The purpose of religion is to prevent the poor from killing the rich."

That astounded me!

Do most people really need to have a belief in a god in order to restrain themselves from killing another human in cold blood?
Exactly and that is what makes religion questionable to me anyway.
Any person with any normal mind does not need a god to tell them wrong from right because then that means humans lack intellect which is not the case for the majority of persons.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
brianpatrick,

I read a book of quotes recently, and one said something like: "The purpose of religion is to prevent the poor from killing the rich."

That astounded me!

Do most people really need to have a belief in a god in order to restrain themselves from killing another human in cold blood?


Not most, but all people need a set of values from which to operate their lives so they don’t revert to baser instincts in times of crisis. Whether it comes from a book of one kind or another, or a learned set of principles, doesn’t matter.

Framing it like “in cold blood” is a bit leading and disingenuous. Nobody kills others “in cold blood.” Even psychopaths have deep, boiling motivations.

I think that quote is an oversimplification. Probably to make some rich feel better about having to pay so much in taxes. I’m sure it’s true on some level, but it’s much more complicated than that.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
It occurred to me some time ago that the essence of Christian belief is this:

"The creator of the universe impregnated a teenage virgin, and their son had to be killed to remove a curse that was caused because a woman was tricked into eating a magic piece of fruit by a talking snake."

Rather nonsensical, isn't it?

It's almost as ridiculous as Scientologists who believe they have little aliens inside their body that they need to get rid of and become a "clear" -- but not even as far-fetched.

I don't see how people can believe this nonsense -- except gullibility, stupidity or indoctrination. Those are the only explanations.

Your thoughts on the ridiculous of religions?

P.S. And don't get me started on Islam. I like being alive, and some of them of murderers.
I recall you saying some time ago that you were planning to write a novel rooted in the Christian story. I'm assuming you've aborted that idea...surely these crass comments aren't the product of any serious enquiry?

Christianity is based on the life of Christ. The Christian Church was founded by the disciples that lived, ate and slept alongside Jesus. Regardless of his proximity, he was never their 'buddy' - he was someone so supernatural that they abandoned their lives to follow him. They founded the first Christian Church so the details and purport of this extraordinary life could be handed down orally.

The disciples witnessed Jesus - evidence powerful enough for them to accept crucifixion and torture in preference to denouncing him. Christians in their thousands willingly met their deaths when a verbal capitulation was all it would have taken to walk away unscathed.

Eventually, the faded memory of Jesus' life was a few generations old and the Church had to defend its faith without any living witnesses. Christians were seen to rival the long-established monotheistic view and continued to be persecuted.

Jesus never explained the nature of his birth or his hybrid biology. The explanations are the product of early Church elders trying to define what Jesus was through the deliberations of seven successive ecumenical councils. It wasn't a priest but a lawyer who gifted the Church with such a succinct, loophole-less description of Jesus' personhood that it became the basis of the Christian Creed.

If Jesus was explained as being of the same substance as God...an extension of the Almighty...the son of God...the gateway to the Father...his story could be subsumed into one cohesive faith. Not a new religion - but a new chapter of the old, established Jewish faith. Jesus became an extension of the same vengeful, smite and damnation tyrant that rocked the Old Testament - a plot development on par with Bobby Ewing's dream sequence.

The gospels of Christ were re-written by diligent scribes who interwove the prophecies of Hebrew scripture with Jesus' teachings to compile a crafted volume that explained Man's ongoing relationship with the 'Father of Creation'. Jesus didn't need to be subordinated or written out of history - an astute lawyer had ensured a watertight description of one substance working through three separate vessels in perfect triadic management of the world. Religious conflict thereby resolved - but new complications to overcome. If Jesus was God - then we murdered our impassable creator on a cross. If Jesus was entirely human, he was the product of human coupling and nothing more than mortal.....tricky.

But if Jesus ' humanity was Mary's genetic legacy we could call him 'Son of Man'. If her seal was unbroken, there can be no question that by some means of divine alchemy, God had provided the divine element of Jesus' unique biology. So the mortal died, the divine ascended, Mary's eternally intact hymen defies any other claims to Jesus' paternity and the vengeful ' 'Almighty Father' with a blood lust can stop punishing us because Jesus' death has atoned for us all.....that covers all bases.

The Triune God is a man-made attempt to build an image out of unrelated puzzle pieces. The Bible is not a book but a compilation of Hebrew and Christian scripture that church elders were issued as a teaching aid to instruct their congregations. Its mass production has given the Bible the same household value as a Rubik cube - it sits on shelves gathering dust because the majority can't figure it out quickly and give up.

None of this detracts from the purity of faith that comes from studying Jesus' life and aspiring to live in accordance with his teachings. Christianity can, no doubt, claim an equal number of thick-as-shit people under its banner as atheism can - but if your enquiries are serious, those aren't the ambassadors to talk to...unless you just want their uneducated perspective to gratify your own.

Christians live their faith in accordance with Christ's teachings and tolerate the Old Testament in respect of ancient, Church tradition. The Adam and Eve story that prematurely capsized your curiosity at the beginning of Genesis has no bearing on core Christian belief - it's no more than an ancient allegory corrupted through oral interpretation. 'Adham' translates as 'mankind' in Aramaic... ribs, tits and a talking phallus all add a little colour.

Your comments could probably score a few rofls on Facebook - they're crass, uneducated and meet the necessary criteria of mindless prejudice to incite ill-feeling. The intellectually eminent who have engaged with critical Christian study can't be crushed into your 'one size fits all' description of "gullable, stupid or indoctrinated." Nor can the common or garden Christians who feed the poor, tend the sick and try to live by a basic code of love and equality.

Trolling on the only Bible stories that you can remember from kindergarten just shows you up as juvenile and ignorant.


Its a shame I'm not a Christian - I'd probably forgive you...
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:35 AM
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Grace Gabriel,

Gee, thanks for the sermon.

In my OP, I asked for people's thoughts on the ridiculousness of religions, and why people believe them.

You failed to address any of that. Instead, you gave me an account of the "rise" of Christianity. Huh?

I proposed that the only reason people believe in them is either stupidity, gullibility or indoctrination -- did you have another option to suggest?
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:20 AM
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I believe she did suggest another reason for people to believe in Christianity: the desire to lead a good, righteous life, without knowing how to do so. The teachings of Jesus resonate with a lot of people as "the way", and so they believe.

It's not about stupidity or gullibility with most people, it's about an honest desire to live life right. The fact that the basic tenants of the belief are twisted and bastardized by people wishing to gain power and control over others does nothing to change the validity of what happened in the beginning.

Whether Jesus was a single individual or several people (and ideas) condensed into one, the fact remains that the ideas originally put forth are a damned good way for humans to get along with one another, which is never a bad thing.

You don't have to be an idjit to want that.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:41 AM
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Prodigalson,

I love the character we've come to know as Jesus. He had some great advice on living at peace with oneself and maintaining harmonious relations with others.

However, I don't see how believing that a god miraculously impregnated a girl so that their son could be crucified to remove a curse, will cause anyone to live better. That central belief is the stuff of fairy tales.

Religion isn't required to be a good person, so why not skip adopting the wacky delusional beliefs and just be a good person?

Furthermore, I've observed that Christianity actually makes some people worse people! It makes them dishonest, and I think that comes from the idea that Jesus will forgive their sin; thus, they no longer hold themselves responsible for their actions and do as they please, regardless of the grief it may cause others. After all, what's the point in seeking to do good when it's more pleasing to do bad? Christ is going to wash my sins away anyway.

I mean, take Cityboy as an example. He's a Christian. And he's the most hostile and belligerent personality I've ever encountered on the internet, not to mention one of the biggest hypocrites.

Finally, are you aware that the great majority of inmates making up the jails in America are Christians? Can't be anything to do with that, can it?
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
Grace Gabriel,

Gee, thanks for the sermon.

In my OP, I asked for people's thoughts on the ridiculousness of religions, and why people believe them.

You failed to address any of that. Instead, you gave me an account of the "rise" of Christianity. Huh?

I proposed that the only reason people believe in them is either stupidity, gullibility or indoctrination -- did you have another option to suggest?
No, not the rise of Christianity - the corruption of Christianity. People are Christians because the compassion and altruism of Christ's example resonate with them - its that simple. Through engaging with his life and prayer, they connect with him and his impact is no less in the world now than when he lived on the Earth.

The Church (in any guise) is man-manufactured packaging of something we cannot explain. It's explanations are flawed and inadequate but it doesn't make any difference. Followers of Christ have a personal relationship with him - the Church (regardless of denomination) provides a like-minded community.

All the bull about people 'being good because they're afraid of hell' is a quote from the dark ages. England's history alone amounts to centuries of Church power,wealth and corruption. Couldn't be further removed from Christ's message.

Separating the fundamental belief in a man called Jesus from the layers of convoluted attempts at explaining him is your starting point to understanding why people still live as Christians. You're skating across the surface ... but you don't really want answers, do you?

This thread is just a hook for throwaway comments to validate your prejudice - not a worthwhile attempt to engage with this topic.

Citing Cityboy as your model of Christianity is a strong indication of just how thorough your research is....
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  #28  
Old 06-25-2018, 01:43 PM
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can we just drop Jesus for a bit.
I mean religion is not just Jesus it is bigger then that.
One has to think outside the box.
What is science if religion did not exist for example is a more pressing question.
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Gabriel View Post
People are Christians because the compassion and altruism of Christ's example resonate with them - its that simple. Through engaging with his life and prayer, they connect with him and his impact is no less in the world now than when he lived on the Earth.
If what draws people to Christianity is Christ's compassion and altruism, why not simply focus on following his example without accepting and adopting all the ridiculous superstitions Christianity has packaged into it; like that there's a heaven and a hell, and we need to accept Jesus into our hearts to receive salvation in the after life?

I love Jesus. I would consider him a role model. Yet I'm an agnostic. But a lot of what he said was BS, plain and simple.

By the way, why do you seem so adamant about defending the value of a religion you've said you don't even subscribe to?
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Konan View Post
If what draws people to Christianity is Christ's compassion and altruism, why not simply focus on following his example without accepting and adopting all the ridiculous superstitions Christianity has packaged into it; like that there's a heaven and a hell, and we need to accept Jesus into our hearts to receive salvation in the after life?

I love Jesus. I would consider him a role model. Yet I'm an agnostic. But a lot of what he said was BS, plain and simple.

By the way, why do you seem so adamant about defending the value of a religion you've said you don't even subscribe to?
how can you love Jesus and be agnostic?
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