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Is secularism providing an adequate alternative to organised religion?

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  #31  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:38 AM
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a friend of mine went psychotic over the boundaries b/n life and death. lmao, he thought he was a deity, all the usual stuff. i say to people who are religious that they are just plain weak. no need to have that kind of a reason for living. love's just more than enough, true love. maybe money makin as well.

@chin? how'd you pick the name chinspinner ...somehow it sounds like "dig inwards".

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  #32  
Old 09-27-2018, 11:05 AM
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I've been thinking about this question.

And here's the thing...

Ask the question, do you agree with the principle of secularism, ie: that the government's dictates shouldn't include what religion you are supposed to practice?

Once you agree with that then the original question becomes moot. You could say that a law against stealing isn't providing an adequate alternative to a smash and grab society. I mean people still steal right... But the principle remains and that's all we have.

There's nothing magic about secularism which makes people behave rationally or be happy. There's nothing magical about law which makes people virtuous. All we can do is argue the ethical points. Once something is found to be ethically superior it is not the idea which need be held accountable for people's actions.

I realise it's a potentially dangerous position to take but I can't see any other way to put it.

The only other thing I'd say is that secularism doesn't produce anything... You don't give it to people, people produce secularism themselves by growing out of tribalism, and this tends to happen after sustained periods of prosperity and development.
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  #33  
Old 09-27-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
I've been thinking about this question.

And here's the thing...

Ask the question, do you agree with the principle of secularism, ie: that the government's dictates shouldn't include what religion you are supposed to practice?

Once you agree with that then the original question becomes moot. You could say that a law against stealing isn't providing an adequate alternative to a smash and grab society. I mean people still steal right... But the principle remains and that's all we have.

There's nothing magic about secularism which makes people behave rationally or be happy. There's nothing magical about law which makes people virtuous. All we can do is argue the ethical points. Once something is found to be ethically superior it is not the idea which need be held accountable for people's actions.

I realise it's a potentially dangerous position to take but I can't see any other way to put it.

The only other thing I'd say is that secularism doesn't produce anything... You don't give it to people, people produce secularism themselves by growing out of tribalism, and this tends to happen after sustained periods of prosperity and development.


And JC swoops in and and throws down a rational explanation of my sarcastic/pessimistic rant.

Humans donít need religion or even laws to be good to each other. Given freedom, and a fair shot at opportunity, humans will generally treat each other with respect and fairness. Itís only when people are subjugated or otherwise misused that there will be problems. Of course there will always be outliers, psychopaths, sociopaths, and dirtbags, but they are the reason we need laws, and not the other way around.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
And JC swoops in and and throws down a rational explanation of my sarcastic/pessimistic rant.

Humans don’t need religion or even laws to be good to each other. Given freedom, and a fair shot at opportunity, humans will generally treat each other with respect and fairness. It’s only when people are subjugated or otherwise misused that there will be problems. Of course there will always be outliers, psychopaths, sociopaths, and dirtbags, but they are the reason we need laws, and not the other way around.

um, think you’re in for, we are in for, a big shock. The young do not feel well treated, the young harbor massive resentment and each generation are unique. I kind of sense there will be brutal shift in society - we’ve turned a corner combined with a new Industrial Age and the young are not us by a long shot.

Last edited by anna; 09-27-2018 at 09:55 PM..
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:18 PM
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... is there a dystopian novel where the young cull the old, we have sent millions into battle for our causes over the centuries ... ask yourself, why should they look after us? Did we not insist they fend for themselves or live as an extension of ourselves, our own lives taking precedence, our greed, the young feel exploited ... shrug
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by anna View Post
... is there a dystopian novel where the young cull the old, we have sent millions into battle for our causes over the centuries ... ask yourself, why should they look after us? Did we not insist they fend for themselves or live as an extension of ourselves, our own lives taking precedence, our greed, the young feel exploited ... shrug


The young feel cheated because they were cheated. They are being left a world which has been scraped and micromanaged out of its available resources and profit opportunities. Coupled with technological advances making many college degrees useless, and many once viable careers obsolete.

I wonít be surprised wherever it goes. I still donít think any of the problems with society stem from secularism providing or not providing a good alternative to religion.
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  #37  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:29 AM
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Within secularism, gangs provide the only replacement for the unjustified assumption that you are better than everyone else because you have joined a group that says so.
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Within secularism, gangs provide the only replacement for the unjustified assumption that you are better than everyone else because you have joined a group that says so.
We are all tribalist. Is our tribe good or bad for the whole, the Aggregate whole? The A-hole?
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2018, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Within secularism, gangs provide the only replacement for the unjustified assumption that you are better than everyone else because you have joined a group that says so.
... um, some religious practice is humble, the Quakers for example ... do secularists hanker to be part of a family, do they see a whole or division?

Secularism as a tribe can also carry the unjustified assumption that you are better than everyone else because you have joined a group that says so.

Last edited by anna; 09-29-2018 at 08:17 AM..
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by anna View Post
... um, some religious practice is humble, the Quakers for example ... do secularists hanker to be part of a family, do they see a whole or division?
Everyone wants to be part of something; even loners can relate to other loners, as a group.

Quakers may practice humility, but deep down inside, they still think they're better than non-Quakers (and displays of humility are just one way of showing it).

No one voluntarily separates themselves from something they think is better.

Originally Posted by anna View Post
Secularism as a tribe can also carry the unjustified assumption that you are better than everyone else because you have joined a group that says so.
Then I guess it would be an adequate alternative.
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