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  #31  
Old 01-08-2018, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick Pierce View Post
I'm all for slappin' a pair of double D's onto (into?) the chest of Assad and lettin' him run with that profile for the next five years.

Who knows. Maybe it would help him access a nurturing aspect of his personality that would show him a way to be a more benevolent despot.
Presumably if the trans movement reaches its intended goals Assad having double DD's wouldn't really make a difference to his public image.

I mean to me it's really not a big deal. I don't care about Caitlyn Jenner and although I think you're supposed to (care), at some point it should be like that, ie: normalised. So coming out, whether as gay or trans isn't even really a thing.

As for despots, I think one of the the defining aspects is a sense of grandiosity and paternalism which convinces them that they are 'doing this for our own good'. And plenty of mothers are willing to dish out a whooping.

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  #32  
Old 01-08-2018, 01:53 PM
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Guys, I don't know that there is a "trans" movement. Certainly I'm not subscribing to such an agenda. This is a deeply personal individual quest to finally arrive at a gender goal that feels appropriate. Maybe its just that more people are feeling at liberty to question and resolve their gender issues. Certainly science and medicine is better equipped to advance these ambitions now.
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
Guys, I don't know that there is a "trans" movement. Certainly I'm not subscribing to such an agenda. This is a deeply personal individual quest to finally arrive at a gender goal that feels appropriate. Maybe its just that more people are feeling at liberty to question and resolve their gender issues. Certainly science and medicine is better equipped to advance these ambitions now.


I don’t think there is a big “trans” movement either. I also don’t think there is a big alt-right movement, or a big SJW movement. Just a few very vocal proponents propping up issues with the aid of social media outlets.

They all “look” bigger than they are.


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  #34  
Old 01-09-2018, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
Guys, I don't know that there is a "trans" movement. Certainly I'm not subscribing to such an agenda. This is a deeply personal individual quest to finally arrive at a gender goal that feels appropriate. Maybe its just that more people are feeling at liberty to question and resolve their gender issues. Certainly science and medicine is better equipped to advance these ambitions now.
I have thought about this and you could be right.

The reason why I think it might be appropriate to call it a movement is because I'd define a movement as a collection of individuals who band together over a single or series of issues, campaign to spread awareness of said issues, and perhaps most importantly aim to have legislation and conventions changed.

When a movement gains traction you usually will see issues affecting the group brought to the fore, you'll have your champions and spokespeople vocal in the media, campaigns will take place internationally, documentary films, news broadcasts, articles etc are produced highlighting issues further. And organisations are setup poised to react to any attack on the group. This military ban is probably a good example.

Anyone who thinks trans people should have the same basic rights as everyone else must want this trend to continue.

Is there anything else we need to call something a movement?
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  #35  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:29 AM
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When you put it that way John, I quite agree. The other thing that's changing, albeit very slowly, is the shame associated with trans. This may never go away no matter how many Hollywood stars follow that path. But as you point out, a full blown movement might change things. I've done my part.
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  #36  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
So, whats the criteria going to be to declare "medical procedures complete'?
As with most things military, there will probably be a standardized/documented/powerpointed form and procedure for the entrance medical exam.
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  #37  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:31 AM
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Yeah, but what if a boy feels like a lush, ripe, luxurious female, but after the prescribed number of surgeries he still looks like a wilted cabbage? Does he not have the right to further surgeries (at public expense) to bring his naturally ugly-ass self in line with what he imagines for himself?

And while we're at it, I've always wanted a bigger dick. I see myself as having a bigger dick, I feel inferior with the dick I have, and I feel like I was mistakenly placed in a small-dick body. Doesn't society, as a whole, owe me a bigger dick, so I can feel I am finally who I'm supposed to be?

I want to know.
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  #38  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Yeah, but what if a boy feels like a lush, ripe, luxurious female, but after the prescribed number of surgeries he still looks like a wilted cabbage? Does he not have the right to further surgeries (at public expense) to bring his naturally ugly-ass self in line with what he imagines for himself?

And while we're at it, I've always wanted a bigger dick. I see myself as having a bigger dick, I feel inferior with the dick I have, and I feel like I was mistakenly placed in a small-dick body. Doesn't society, as a whole, owe me a bigger dick, so I can feel I am finally who I'm supposed to be?

I want to know.
I think that part of breaking your pact, negating your No Further Surgeries Required earns cosmetic surgery to make you look like Helen Thomas.
Article 12221 Title x subsection 9
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  #39  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:55 AM
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I Googled the Article above and got nothing, so I Googled Helen Thomas... and got what most transgenders end up looking like.

Somehow that reinforces the claim by many that this is a mental illness.
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  #40  
Old 01-11-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post

And while we're at it, I've always wanted a bigger dick. I see myself as having a bigger dick, I feel inferior with the dick I have, and I feel like I was mistakenly placed in a small-dick body. Doesn't society, as a whole, owe me a bigger dick, so I can feel I am finally who I'm supposed to be?

I want to know.
Find contentment in being a dick.
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  #41  
Old 01-11-2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Find contentment in being a dick.
If I'd only had this advice many years ago, for I've been a dick most of my life and, following this advice, I could've been content oh so long ago.

Many exes would have loved you, flyingtart.
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  #42  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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I get it because Helen Thomas is is ugly and looks like a man!

Har har har!

I could kind of understand parodying arguments that some people -- especially academics -- use to argue for trans rights, if they were clever or made a point. (And I haven't seen it yet.)

But if you really believe it's about mental illness, than yeah, I think you're being a total dick if you make fun of transgender people themselves.

Do you mock other people who have a mental illness? If not, then why is this OK?

Otherwise, I think there's something to be said for not being a dick or an asshole or whatever you want to call it when discussing these issues. But maybe that's just me...
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  #43  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:00 AM
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Set the why aside, because it's another set of arguments

Post Op Trannies have a high rate of suicide. In an endeavor (especially combat arms) that needs unit cohesion, is introducing a group of people that might typically have a higher rate of suicide a wise course of action?

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127

A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...h.mentalhealth

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.
Add in the fact that there is a high percentage that regret their transition

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

I bring this up to because when you change policies in the military you should ask

1. What is the purpose of the U.S. Military?
2. Does this change enhance or degrade things in the military?
3. Does this improve the military or is it a political ploy?

I have often argued that Truman's and then Eisenhower's efforts to integrate the military did as much or more to integrate the nation than the more publicized civil actions in the 1960s and 1970s.

I also think it would be a mistake to try to make an apples to oranges comparison to the integration of the armed services with the inclusion of special interests in the military.

It might turn out to be much to do about nothing. It may work out that the post op trannies that end up sticking it out want to be their and can contribute.

There is a good chance that it won't effect things like special ops because if the physical requirements are left the same then it will wash out EVERYBODY that can't make it.

But that doesn't mean that issues like a higher rate of suicide shouldn't be taken in consideration.
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  #44  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post

But that doesn't mean that issues like a higher rate of suicide shouldn't be taken in consideration.
Not sure how you would take that into consideration and make it policy. I understand what you're saying -- but more likely to commit suicide seems like pretty nebulous criteria and not likely the kind of thing that would stand up in court -- which is where this is going to end up.

I'm more concerned about it in general. People who are pro transgender rights tend to ignore the possibility of a regret factor, downplay it or they claim the high suicide rate is due solely to how post op transgender people are regarded by society. I'm thinking it's probably a combination of both.

I read an article by a lady whose 19 year old daughter came out as transgender -- the daughter raised the money and had her breasts removed. Can you make a decision like that when you're 19? I'm sure some will argue, yes, but I have my doubts.

Whether or not you think it's a mental illness, considering that radical, irreversible surgery is involved, I'm not really on the bandwagon that this is something that should be automatically applauded.

People are going to do what they think they have to do. And once something has made up his or her mind, then I'll support their rights and regard them just like anyone else, so if it doesn't mean incurring any additional cost, and it doesn't inhibit performance in any way, then I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to serve in the military.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I have often argued that Truman's and then Eisenhower's efforts to integrate the military did as much or more to integrate the nation than the more publicized civil actions in the 1960s and 1970s.
That seems like a stretch. Based on what? What real difference did it make?

Seems like the only people who would be influenced in any way would have been reasonable people who served in the military -- whereas civil rights movement was the catalyst that changed the laws that actually put an end to Jim Crow.
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  #45  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post

That seems like a stretch. Based on what? What real difference did it make?

Seems like the only people who would be influenced in any way would have been reasonable people who served in the military -- whereas civil rights movement was the catalyst that changed the laws that actually put an end to Jim Crow.
Think it through a little harder. or not.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Think it through a little harder. or not.
Your usual ultra-lame answer when you're challenged to back something up.

Ridiculous.

BTW -- when you say things like this, it has the exact opposite effect of what you would want.

Think that through. Or not.

Last edited by Myers; 01-13-2018 at 12:46 PM..
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:02 PM
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[QUOTE=Myers;740620]Not sure how you would take that into consideration and make it policy. I understand what you're saying -- but more likely to commit suicide seems like pretty nebulous criteria and not likely the kind of thing that would stand up in court -- which is where this is going to end up.
[/QUOTE}

How could you leave it out of your consideration?

If the "mental" aspects are so prevalent - and they are, then it has to be a consideration.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:12 PM
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You leave it out because there's no concrete way to correlate "more likely commit suicide" to performance or a specific outcome.

I'm thinking about how these things are challenged in court -- and it's just too nebulous.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Yeah, but what if a boy feels like a lush, ripe, luxurious female, but after the prescribed number of surgeries he still looks like a wilted cabbage? Does he not have the right to further surgeries (at public expense) to bring his naturally ugly-ass self in line with what he imagines for himself?

And while we're at it, I've always wanted a bigger dick. I see myself as having a bigger dick, I feel inferior with the dick I have, and I feel like I was mistakenly placed in a small-dick body. Doesn't society, as a whole, owe me a bigger dick, so I can feel I am finally who I'm supposed to be?

I want to know.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Your usual ultra-lame answer when you're challenged to back something up.

Ridiculous.

BTW -- when you say things like this, it has the exact opposite effect of what you would want.

Think that through. Or not.
Hmm, I'll let this response stand.

Truman, and then Eisenhower to a lesser degree took large political risks to integrate the armed services.

And yes, there was and remains a bit of racial strife in the military, as in all other places.

But many people, serving with others of different colors came to like and accept others in spite of prejudices they had grown up with.

Many of these people, making the transition from military to civilian life applied this to a time in the next 10-20-30 years when the nation integrated. Many of these people became the elected officials, police etc that were at the tip of the spear.

It was certainly not easy, but IMO without the example of the Armed Services being integrated it would have been an order of magnitude tougher.

Of course this can not be proven empirically one way or another. And it's not the subject of books or movies that I know of. And it doesn't get any modern press, but at the time it was a hotly contested - at least internally, and very divisive.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
You leave it out because there's no concrete way to correlate "more likely commit suicide" to performance or a specific outcome.

I'm thinking about how these things are challenged in court -- and it's just too nebulous.
If post op trannies, per studies commit suicide at higher rates then it gets into "actuarial science" so there is some concrete basis.

So there could be a predictive model - it boils down to if there is any desire and will to use it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Hmm, I'll let this response stand.
You'll let the response stand -- and then you go on to explain yourself. Funny.

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Many of these people became the elected officials, police etc that were at the tip of the spear.
Didn't really seem to have much of an effect in the Jim Crow states in the south though.

No -- it ended in because of federal intervention and the biggest catalyst for that was the civil rights movement.

So while the integration of the military may have had an effect, there's really no good reason to believe it did "as much or more to integrate the nation than the more publicized civil actions in the 1960s and 1970s."

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Of course this can not be proven empirically one way or another.
Translation: It's guesswork without much of a foundation.

Last edited by Myers; 01-13-2018 at 03:46 PM..
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post


Translation: It's guesswork without much of a foundation.
Yes, it's guesswork.

Foundation? I can look at what went on before, and after.

There had been attempts to integrate troops or elevate blacks in the military prior to that (the Buffalo Soldiers, for example)

They ended up being allowed to fail.

Truman broke with the FDR admin thinking and did something.

And yes, as I've said this is My opinion. Truman seems to be an afterthought, sandwiched in between FDR and Ike. The man made a lot of hard choices.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:10 PM
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Maybe the integration of the military had an effect on "elected officials" in the north.

I'm assuming that roughly the same ratio of elected officials in the south served in the military. But it didn't seem to have any effect on them whatsoever -- where Jim Crow was the law of the land.

Again -- it took the civil rights movement and the intervention of sympathetic northerners to pressure northern lawmakers to end Jim Crow. Without them, it would have gone on indefinitely -- regardless of who gained insight through military service. A factor -- sure, I'll buy that. As significant or MORE significant than the civil rights movement? No way. Seems to be some reluctance on your part to give credit where it's due.

Otherwise, you're certainly entitled to your opinion...

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Old 01-13-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
If post op trannies, per studies commit suicide at higher rates then it gets into "actuarial science" so there is some concrete basis.

So there could be a predictive model - it boils down to if there is any desire and will to use it.

Again, I was talking about how this will likely shake out -- and in that regard, good luck getting a court decision based on predictive models.

What you would need are examples -- evidence that a higher suicide rate in the civilian population would somehow affect an individual's ability to serve.

Of course, we could see how it's panning out in other countries -- although there might not be many combat situations to look at -- but Americans tend not to do that regardless. Oh well.

Last edited by Myers; 01-13-2018 at 04:44 PM..
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
... So, whats the criteria going to be to declare "medical procedures complete'?
I suppose an agreement to have no more medical procedures (at least during their hitch) would do the trick.

As Connie says (and I brought up in an earlier post), their is a wide range of possible procedures a person could choose to try to bring their reality in line with their vision of what they want to be.

A soldier so obsessed with his/her cheeks, or breasts, or butt that they feel they must get some cutting done before they can be whole might not be able to focus fully on soldiering, but this applies across the board.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
...But if you really believe it's about mental illness, than yeah, I think you're being a total dick if you make fun of transgender people themselves.

Do you mock other people who have a mental illness? If not, then why is this OK?

Otherwise, I think there's something to be said for not being a dick or an asshole or whatever you want to call it when discussing these issues. But maybe that's just me...
Myers, you would certainly be qualified to call me on being a dick about this, having so much real-life experience yourself, but I think you're being a little too sensitive.

I mock no one with mental illness, and in some instances I would be able to understand transgenderism better if it were shown to be a mental disorder. In other instances I think a person would be crazy not to transition.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:49 AM
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Right -- so going along with saying transgenders look like Helen Thomas or comparing someone to a wilted cabbage isn't considered mocking in your book.

Okee dokey! Maybe I'm just being too sensitive. Boo hoo on me.

Otherwise, I’m going to be positive here as part of Mohican’s initiative to make Writers Beat a friendlier place.

I've always admired your folksy, tell-it-like it is approach, which could be confused with you being a dick.

Cheers and a belated happy New Year to you!
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  #59  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:07 AM
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Connie (Offline)
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Well I agree with most of what you guys are saying, except perhaps that transexualism is a mental disorder. Not sure about that. But I do certainly agree about the very high rate of suicide- higher than any other group of people. And then there are the few that regret. Most physicians and medical centers that perform sex change require that the candidate live for a full year in their chosen gender- that means live, work, integrate into society. This is carefully monitored, like probation, to make sure the candidate will be successful. But many avoid this preferring the "'do it yourself" method with occasional hops to Mexico for surgery. I think these are the ones most likely to regret or take their lives.
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:04 AM
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These days, with 3-D printing, there's no telling how far it can all go. Going to war? 3-D print an extra set of balls and dick just in case. Too patriarchal? Okay, print a vagina just in case you change your mind. You can even strap on a dick and a vagina at the same time, so you can fuck yourself when the bombs are falling. It's great.

I spent my first three years of marriage teaching my wife what to do with her hips during sex. "You can't just lay there," and I'd actually have to take my hands and move them. All this time I could've been fucking myself. No one knows how I like it better than I do, so it all works out. Of course, I probably wouldn't have gone to Vietnam, but that's a different story.

In my day, men were strapping on dresses to try to get out of the war. Now, we're gonna strap on dresses to get to it into it. Makes sense, really. Saw one of my uncles in a dress one time and it was scary as hell.

Last edited by spshane; 03-04-2018 at 09:35 AM..
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