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I was moved by Kavanaugh's testimony....

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Old 10-10-2018, 04:52 PM
E. Zamora (Offline)
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Originally Posted by Chinspinner View Post
I like to think I have traversed the middle ground, correct me if I am wrong.

In a simple soundbite, my opinion is this, we need to listen to all parties before we can draw a conclusion. When it is a case of "he said- she said" this may result in injustice, which is awful, but do we discard the fundamental edicts of our society in favour of justice against the few? I don't know, honestly. I simply do not know, I see the risks, they scare me, but I do not know.

My position clearly stated. I would add controversially that circa 20% of rape claims prove to be false. Empirical discussion requires all facts.
I agree with most of that.

I was talking about the differences in presentation or the performances of both Kavanaugh and Ford at the senate hearings and how they were perceived.

Kavanaugh pulled out all the stops, anger, tears etc. -- Ford was more or less deadpan, but people were talking her baby voice.

Like I said, beyond this case, I've seen this in the business world; men can get angry, but when women show emotion or raise their voices, they're bitches or crazy or both. And tears? Forget about it.

I worked with a lady at a world-wide consumer products company -- apparently she got a little upset at a meeting, but pretty much kept her cool. After the meeting someone saw her in a stairwell crying, and that made her famous as the crazy crying in the stairwell lady. Heard it mentioned a number of times.

Otherwise, and more recently, I think the pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The "me too" movement was necessary, but now there's a danger that women will be automatically and unconditionally believed, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.

Hopefully, the pendulum will swing back to the center. In the meantime, I've found out the hard way that I can't even express my concern without someone insinuating that I don't get it, or that as man, I'm not even allowed to have an opinion...

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  #62  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
I agree with most of that.

I was talking about the differences in presentation or the performances of both Kavanaugh and Ford at the senate hearings and how they were perceived.

Kavanaugh pulled out all the stops, anger, tears etc. -- Ford was more or less deadpan, but people were talking her baby voice.

Like I said, beyond this case, I've seen this in the business world; men can get angry, but when women show emotion or raise their voices, they're bitches or crazy or both. And tears? Forget about it.

I worked with a lady at a world-wide consumer products company -- apparently she got a little upset at a meeting, but pretty much kept her cool. After the meeting someone saw her in a stairwell crying, and that made her famous as the crazy crying in the stairwell lady. Heard it mentioned a number of times.

Otherwise, and more recently, I think the pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The "me too" movement was necessary, but now there's a danger that women will be automatically and unconditionally believed, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.

Hopefully, the pendulum will swing back to the center. In the meantime, I've found out the hard way that I can't even express my concern without someone insinuating that I don't get it, or that as man, I'm not even allowed to have an opinion...
Taking your last point first; Bulverism is unhelpful in any discussion. Of course an "outsider" is entitled to their opinions as long as they agree with the point of view expressed.

I was managing a job where some moron wolf-whistled a girl working there. I ensured he was kicked off the job- this was not some noble act on my part, it was a necessity. My female client asked what happened. I responded "He deserved to be kicked off for pure idiocy (unsaid- in the current climate)." She laughed.

I would contend that this is a normal and reasonable reaction. It could have easily descended into outrage. Everyone involved just dealt with it. Everyone came out better for it.

On the matter of Kavanagh/ Ford, I hold judgement, the truth of it is so fogged up I struggle to pass opinion.
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  #63  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:51 PM
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Unfortunately, whatever truth there was was obscured by the sloppy handling of the information.
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Old Yesterday, 09:13 AM
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It's hard to judge this.



No one substantiated anything against Kavanaugh.


Of "Doctor" Ford's four witnesses, nobody backed up her recollections.


Her claims of fear of flying appear false.


Even someone she claimed as a friend says that she (the friend) was never there, and never met Kavanaugh.



In return, "Doctor" Ford, who should know all about privacy, threw her friend under the bus.



"Your friend says she was never there"


"She's sick", said Ford (my paraphrase)


So Ford, who is a Doctor, and should know better than to render any medical or mental judgements about someone, friend or otherwise without that person's permission, rendered a judgement in public - in front of Congress - that her friend in not backing her up was "Sick"


Very unprofessional.





There other witnesses against Kavanaugh had even bigger flaws in their stories.
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