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Will the United States Get Its's Southern Border Wall?

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Old 01-29-2018, 08:37 PM
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Default Will the United States Get Its's Southern Border Wall?


Will the United States build a wall on it's southern border?

It's obviously a topic that is divisive.

The topic of a border wall in specific, and illegal immigration in general has shifted. And has shifted fairly recently, withing the last 8-10 years. 10 years ago tough stances against illegal immigration were bipartisan. And there was also bipartisan support for illegal immigration. (McCain's Gang of eight)

There are still the McCains, Grahams, and Bush's that want unfettered immigration, illegal and otherwise, but the Republicans in general, and tRUMP voters in particular want the wall built.

While not the typical tRUMP voter, I do agree with the wall. In fact, in an absurdist way I'd like for there to be ten to twenty mile stretches where the wall is wide enough for chariot races. If we are to have a spectacle, I want a grand spectacle. A hugely huge spectacle!

Absurdist spectacles aside, a deterrent against unfettered illegal immigration is a necessity. It could be a wall (a long term if not permanent solution, ask Hadrian)
It could be pulling troops out of the Middle East and putting them on the border . It could be both.

So what is the projected cost of the wall. Mitch McConnel places it at 15 billion. So that means that it's probably 30 billion. If we have my criteria of being wide enough for chariot races it could grow to 45 or 60 billion.

Yup, that's a lot of cash to throw around, but.... at 60 billion it would be about 1.5 percent of our (for publication) budget.

So is there a R.O.I. calculation? A cost of illegal immigration that could pay for itself?

Moving away from the budgetary. The US is supposed to be a Nation. Yes, some, including myself fault DC for the trappings of empire. But even Empires had borders that they made people respect? Even if the Empires didn't respect others borders?

And it's a matter of law. It is illegal to cross our border without proper documentation and permission. So everyone that crosses illegally - and every "undocumented" crossing over has broken US Federal Law.

And there are many illegal aliens that do more than passively break our laws.

And wall on Southern Borders have a habit of working. The Scots had the Romans build a wall on their southern border to keep the Romans out. Mexico has a fence/wall on it's southern border to control access to their country. Israel built a fence on their southern border and virtually dried up illegal immigration over their southern border.

The efficacy of Israel's southern border fence shows that it just might work for us.

Why would you not want a border wall? There are reasons, some more valid than others.
1. It might be an eyesore, unless you go with the Big Beautiful type of wall, or the edifice type of wall that can support chariot races. The remnants of Hadrian's Wall and China's Great Wall are, even in ruin, beautiful.
2. It might cause environmental issues.
3. It might stop people from coming over, and you want them to come over. Fuck immigration laws.

There are further reasons for a wall, and a sane immigration policy which can be discussed. Sustainability, putting 'Murrica first, etc can all be discussed.

A big beautiful wall, with a few selected beautiful portals.

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Old 01-29-2018, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post

The Scots had the Romans build a wall on their southern border to keep the Romans out.
No, you've got that backwards. The Romans built it to keep the Picts out. It was effectively the NW frontier of the Roman Empire.

I thought the Donald was going to make the Mexicans pay for the wall? Maybe that's the sticking point.
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Old 01-30-2018, 04:21 AM
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("...before one spends millions on building a wall, wouldn't it just be better to reform the voting system to "hand counted votes" and "identity checks" at polling stations before going into the voting booths..." ventured the goblin thinking one had nothing to protect otherwise, wall or no wall)
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Old 01-30-2018, 08:03 AM
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It's another strange moral crusade. Some idea that you shouldn't try to enforce border control, and that doing so is racist or immoral on some level. Never mind what happens to people who are illegally in the country, ie: sold into modern day slavery, co-opted into drug operations and forced to work in the sex trade etc, each predator knowing how utterly vulnerable an illegal migrant is.

Yes it should stop.

how you do that is up for debate and frankly I'm not going to pretend I know the best way to go about it. But I will say that the whole wall discussion here in the UK is more or less outlawed. If you were to come out in favour of it you'd be identified as a crackpot straight of the bat. And then nothing else is likely to be explored regarding migration beyond that.

I think basically the absurd image of it has shut down the possibility of a proper discussion.

I think it probably helps to say let's leave the wall aside and just ask what you think of people smuggling on the southern border?

Once you've explored the implications of that you might be able move on from there.
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
No, you've got that backwards. The Romans built it to keep the Picts out. It was effectively the NW frontier of the Roman Empire.

I thought the Donald was going to make the Mexicans pay for the wall? Maybe that's the sticking point.
I was trying to be funny with that role reversal Must have missed the mark
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:00 AM
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Doh!
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:55 PM
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Columbia and Brazil are putting tighter clamps on their borders with Venezuela.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...brazil-borders

Brazil and Colombia are sending extra troops to patrol frontier regions where Venezuelans have arrived in record numbers over recent months.


Colombia, which officially took in more than half a million Venezuelans over the last six months of 2017, also plans to make it harder to cross the frontier or stay illegally in Colombia. Brazil said it will shift refugees from regions near the border where social services are badly strained.
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:13 PM
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China's wall didn't work. Hadrian's wall didn't work. The Berlin wall didn't work.
If enemies want to invade, they'll swarm over your wall, or punch holes in it. If people need to migrate, they'll swim around it or fly over it, or die on it. If people want badly enough to escape, they'll dig under it, climb over it or die on it.

Unfortunately for migrating wildlife, they mostly just die.

But, hey, something has to be seen to be done, however ineffective. Isn't that why you keep starting unwinnable wars against nations, some of whose citizens or guests might have done something to you or at least thought about doing something to you?

In all cases, some contractors make out like bandits - and isn't that what capitalism is all about?
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:15 PM
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... or... um... Idunno... use that money to make life more bearable on the other side of the border so people don't need to leave their homes and families?
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
Columbia and Brazil are putting tighter clamps on their borders with Venezuela.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...brazil-borders
Let the government control enough of your economy and you'll have to have a police state just to keep people from fleeing. Venezuela is a disaster -- and I remember growing up being taught how much of a hero Chavez was.

It doesn't work folks.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Palindrome View Post
... or... um... Idunno... use that money to make life more bearable on the other side of the border so people don't need to leave their homes and families?


I think, yes. We do pay a lot of appeasement money to nations to keep them from doing things we donít like, but maybe weíre giving the money to the wrong people? Maybe we should just give it directly to families with a high likelihood of crossing our border illegally and let them do what they want with it. Sure, some of them will spend it on Twinkies and soda pop, or drugs, but most Mexican illegals I meet just want to work and take care of their families.

Seems like the price tag would be much smaller than funneling money to governments filled with individuals whose tastes for luxury have already been over indulged.




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Old 02-13-2018, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think, yes. We do pay a lot of appeasement money to nations to keep them from doing things we donít like, but maybe weíre giving the money to the wrong people? Maybe we should just give it directly to families with a high likelihood of crossing our border illegally and let them do what they want with it. Sure, some of them will spend it on Twinkies and soda pop, or drugs, but most Mexican illegals I meet just want to work and take care of their families.

Seems like the price tag would be much smaller than funneling money to governments filled with individuals whose tastes for luxury have already been over indulged.




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Now there's something worth voting about.

Oh, that ain't how the voting thing works.

Okay. Back to the endless struggle against injustice.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:58 AM
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We do pay a lot of appeasement money to nations to keep them from doing things we donít like,
First, consider why you're paying nations "appeasement" money. The treaties were arrived at by some process - mostly secret. What are those governments agreeing to do, and to whom?

Second, the payments tend to come in the form of US manufactured weaponry. Maybe a little outdated: the American military want smaller, stronger, faster, newer, higher-tech weapons, so they sell the old stuff on to city police and beholden nations, at a small markup, on credit - and the US government writes that debt off and calls it international aid.
Guess what the weapons are used for! To make life more unbearable for the citizens of that country, or the one next door that they're at war with - usually because of some mess left behind by imperialism.

but maybe weíre giving the money to the wrong people?
You're giving it the to the "legitimate' government of the county. How it became the legitimate government is subject to secrecy laws. In all cases, there are strings - no birth control, or outlaw the socialist party, or certain business considerations, like allowing American investors to buy their water, or exclusive right to sell GM seeds. In no cases is the money intended to help poor people or oppressed minorities.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Palindrome View Post
First, consider why you're paying nations "appeasement" money. The treaties were arrived at by some process - mostly secret. What are those governments agreeing to do, and to whom?

Second, the payments tend to come in the form of US manufactured weaponry. Maybe a little outdated: the American military want smaller, stronger, faster, newer, higher-tech weapons, so they sell the old stuff on to city police and beholden nations, at a small markup, on credit - and the US government writes that debt off and calls it international aid.
Guess what the weapons are used for! To make life more unbearable for the citizens of that country, or the one next door that they're at war with - usually because of some mess left behind by imperialism.


You're giving it the to the "legitimate' government of the county. How it became the legitimate government is subject to secrecy laws. In all cases, there are strings - no birth control, or outlaw the socialist party, or certain business considerations, like allowing American investors to buy their water, or exclusive right to sell GM seeds. In no cases is the money intended to help poor people or oppressed minorities.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... you're malfunctioning all over the place soldier.

Straight back to the reconditioning centre for you, dose you up on psychedelics and play you the national anthem on repeat for a few weeks.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Palindrome View Post
... or... um... Idunno... use that money to make life more bearable on the other side of the border so people don't need to leave their homes and families?
We give not quite a billion a year in foreign aid to Mexico.

Sometimes walls are not totally effective but still a strong detterent

Israel build a southern border fence and it's stoppled all but a handful from that direction.

if it stopped 90%, or as few as 50% I would be happy.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
We give not quite a billion a year in foreign aid to Mexico.

Sometimes walls are not totally effective but still a strong detterent

Israel build a southern border fence and it's stoppled all but a handful from that direction.

if it stopped 90%, or as few as 50% I would be happy.


Israel did much more than build a wall. They have a military blockade on Gaza. The two sides are still essentially at war. I donít think the analogy works here.

Iím not sure what business youíre in, but my business seemingly would be one of the ones most affected by illegal Mexican and South American immigration. But I make a great deal of money fixing poor craftsmanship by people who outbid me in the beginning. Not to say that illegal immigrants are all poor craftsmen. Iíve met many who are exceptional at their trades. But most of them have no formal training, and are used by unscrupulous contractors trying to capitalize one cheap labor.

The idea that government assistance paid to illegal aliens is affecting our financial bottom line is just wrong. That money is a drop in a swimming pool. Even the billion in aid is peanuts. It basically buys off crooked politicians, officials, and businessmen when we need them.

I donít think Trump ever really intended or intends to actually build a wall. Itís a preposterous idea. And while I think heís not very smart, heís not an idiot. Itís part of his political strategy. He knows even republicans donít like the idea, and if theyíre forced to include it in a deal (for political reasons) they will probably never allocate the money. And I think Trump knows that.

I have a feeling heíll be re-elected, though. He runs a hell of a campaign, and as much as CNN would like it too, nothing sticks to him.








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Old 02-14-2018, 05:39 PM
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It would work if we wanted it to. I would have no problem with withdrawing our troops (need to cut back on foreign adventureism, anyhoo) and put them on our southern border.

And it's not the Gaza Strip I'm talking about but the entirety of their southern border.
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Old 02-14-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
It would work if we wanted it to. I would have no problem with withdrawing our troops (need to cut back on foreign adventureism, anyhoo) and put them on our southern border.

And it's not the Gaza Strip I'm talking about but the entirety of their southern border.


I donít think we want to.

Iím not even convinced itís a HUGE problem. Seems more like a red herring.

Thereís a big nut here, but nobody is really talking about it because theyíre so worried about the peanuts all over the floor.

The US has always relied on some form of slavery to maintain its constant growth strategy. Real slavery, indentured servitude, wage slavery, cheap immigrant labor, etc.


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Old 02-15-2018, 02:11 AM
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[QUOTE=brianpatrick


But most of them have no formal training, and are used by unscrupulous contractors trying to capitalize one cheap labor.

[/QUOTE]

Shouldn't that be "... trying to capitalize Juan cheap labor"?
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
The US has always relied on some form of slavery to maintain its constant growth strategy. Real slavery, indentured servitude, wage slavery, cheap immigrant labor, etc.
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This isn't exceptional though. Not like Roman, Egyptian or Islamic empires didn't have their slaves.

Every nation relies of wage negotiations, this isn't slavery though, just by definition. Exploitative, maybe, but nothing is stopping people from pooling their resources and starting up co-operative type organisations -- they do exist.

Every developed nation relies on cheap migrant labour, or outsourcing to cheaper locations. You certainly wouldn't want that to stop entirely. Sure companies might have a responsibility to ensure that the workers they employ either directly or indirectly through foreign investments are treated with dignity. But you'd destroy a lot of undeveloped economies if those investments were to cease.

Anyone governing those countries with any sense wants more foreign investment. It is the real route to prosperity (not aid which is more or less useless long term).

The biggest problem with slavery today exists in states like Mauritania, where an estimated 500,000 Africans are actually enslaved and shipped out to the Middle East.

Nobody ever really mentions it though, again I think it's a case of the wrong type of perp. Goes against the narrative, and therefore swept under the carpet.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
The idea that government assistance paid to illegal aliens is affecting our financial bottom line is just wrong. That money is a drop in a swimming pool. Even the billion in aid is peanuts. It basically buys off crooked politicians, officials, and businessmen when we need them.
Ah see but what good is that? A Billion is still a billion, I'm sure some community out there could do with a billion in government investment lol, more than a few in my estimation.

Some crazy land where you pay taxes so that the government can fill the pockets of a bunch of corrupt politicians abroad. Oh well.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Palindrome View Post
In all cases, some contractors make out like bandits - and isn't that what capitalism is all about?
Sort of.

But where does the contracted money come from?

These contractors don't exist without the promised tax dollars from government. And we all know the revolving door thang.

The existence of the state represents an economic opportunity for munitions manufacturers as well as private security firms. Anyone heavily invested in these businesses has a huge profit motive for their government to be involved in as much conflict as possible. But the key word is government. If they had to bankroll the conflict themselves they wouldn't last a week.

OK so can't blame capitalism, just for the record. Capitalism is just voluntary trade.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohican
It would work if we wanted it to. I would have no problem with withdrawing our troops (need to cut back on foreign adventureism, anyhoo) and put them on our southern border.

And it's not the Gaza Strip I'm talking about but the entirety of their southern border.



Originally Posted by brianpatrick


I donít think we want to.

Iím not even convinced itís a HUGE problem. Seems more like a red herring.

Thereís a big nut here, but nobody is really talking about it because theyíre so worried about the peanuts all over the floor.

The US has always relied on some form of slavery to maintain its constant growth strategy. Real slavery, indentured servitude, wage slavery, cheap immigrant labor, etc.
First you have to define the "We"

If you are talking about wanting to keep the border open, it's obvious that the we is the "bipartisan" majority of 100 Federal Senators, The "Bipartisan" majority of 435 members of the US House Of Representatives, and the majority Federal Judges.

The we is not me


If the will is there it can be done - this has been proven in the past.

I would use this situation as some form of proof that 'Murrica is an oligarchy and not our supposed Representative Republic and certainly not a democracy.

I'd further posit that 'Murrica has been officially an oligarchy since September 17, 1787- which makes this article a bit of a chuckle for me https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/o...s-piketty.html
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:33 AM
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Seems to me the wall is an absurdity as a wall unmanned will do nothing. As has been pointed out people will fly over, dig under, walk around, swim around, and generally use any means to make the wall a border long altar to the gods of waste.

What upsets me most about our immigration policy is the duplicity of the debate. Everyone knows these people were coming here and everyone was more thna happy to enjoy the benefits of their labor. I wont say exploitation becaues the immigrants also knew what they were coming here for and to their credit they did the work no one else wanted to do and did it well and the almost explicit tacit understanding was that they could stay and make a life. Which is the traditional means of making your way in the US. If people feel immigrant neighborhoods are a little slummy then theyve forgotten that in America you start at the bottom and the bottom never looks nice.

But to let people start lives here and then come back thirty or forty years later, because remember Reagan signed Amnesty into law back in 1982 so this is nothing new, but to come back after all this time and act surprised that these enclaves exist and complain as soon as they begin to have political clout is immoral to my mind and the targeting of people who have just graduated into adolescence is tantamount to unprovoked exile.

Its a lot like people complaining about the decline of the mom and pop store when all their patronage goes to the walmart. Everyone knew what was happening, everyone knew where it was going to go but the consumers who wanted cheap prices, the farmers and construction companies and landscaping services who wanted to pay low wages, the politicians who benefited wanted their immediate rewards without thought to the future.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:56 AM
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Let's not be shortsighted. Think of the jobs it will create. It will be like the great California gold rush of the eighteenth century as an endless stream of four wheelers and motorcycles sporting their confederate flags in a show of patriotism join forces to build the wall.

Almost makes one wish our national anthem was Freebird.

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