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Brexit Update

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  #1  
Old 02-10-2018, 12:30 AM
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Default Brexit Update


I think it's going swimmingly, don't you?

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Old 02-10-2018, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
I think it's going swimmingly, don't you?
Is that still going on?

The whole thing has yet to make a ripple in South Florida life.

I suppose the effect is regional specific. Kinda like the bird calls I hear just outside the door as I type on a Saturday 7:40 am morning while listening for a heating a pot of water on the stove to bubble "Ready!".
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:36 AM
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It's still going on because the tory party are in civil war over it. It would be funny if our livelihoods didn't depend on these arseholes.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
It's still going on because the tory party are in civil war over it. It would be funny if our livelihoods didn't depend on these arseholes.

We once had a civil war about livelihoods before the one we are having now.

Funny or not the fightin' never stops.
We just change weapons.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:22 PM
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Seeing the UK follow up on it's Brexit vote in an expeditious manner is a refreshing confirmation of democracy.
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:16 PM
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Expeditious. That’s one word for it.
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:01 AM
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These talks were never going to be amiable.

The EU wishes to hold jurisdiction over the continent and uses economic blackmail to this end. There really isn't a reason why European countries shouldn't agree on a mutually beneficial trade arrangement without having to hand all executive power to Brussels. At the moment there is an either or ultimatum -- so far I've never heard an argument for why that should be.

We're used to this sort of thing. The IMF and the World Bank run around destroying economies and then offer to bail states out as long as they do what they're told. If Greece is in trouble it can have some cash so long as it implements a programme of severe austerity.

Economic leverage is just a means to centralise power.
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
The EU wishes to hold jurisdiction over the continent and uses economic blackmail to this end.
Brits were promised a golden Brexit bonanza which we now realise was a crock of shit. In fact Brexit will be a disaster for the UK, which is the reason the tory party are in open warfare over it. A secretive subgroup of tories are hell bent on Brexit at any cost, but they tend to be millionaires with little to lose and everything to gain.
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Brits were promised a golden Brexit bonanza which we now realise was a crock of shit.
Does anyone really believe political promises? If anyone does I'd advise you otherwise.

We were promised lots of things. We were promised the disaster, in fact. People voted for the disaster. I'm waiting for it to happen.

Do you mean that for example the people who didn't vote to stay in now regret it because of the disaster they've been promised all along? Or do you think that most people either are willing to take a disaster to halt the European superstate or don't believe in the disaster in the first place?

Personally I never voted with economics in mind. I study economics, I don't think anyone really understands it, certainly not your average layman. So the idea that we can make informed economic decisions regarding such complexities as EU membership is dubious to me. I always knew that the economic arguments for and against were gross simplifications.

In the end you can only vote on principle -- not because you know exactly what is going to happen.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:02 AM
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No, I'm not saying people understood the complexities. The background to this is complex. For forty years British politicians have used the EU as a useful scapegoat for any social ill they were not prepared to deal with. Immigration, for example. So in a lot of people's minds the issue of immigration became synonymous with EU membership. The reality is different. More people come into the UK from outside the EU, so it's not an EU issue at all. The British government could have done a lot more to curb immigration but chose not to, for economic reasons. But that's not what they told the electorate.

Cameron - surely the worst British PM ever, with the possible exception of Theresa May - won the 2015 election on the back of promising a referendum on EU membership. He was so stupidly confident of a Remain win he barely took the process seriously, bowed to pressure from hard brexiteers to exclude the youth vote and EU nationals, and ran a lacklustre negative campaign. The Leave campaign made outrageous lies about EU money being spent on the NHS and armies of Turkish immigrants queuing up at the border. People were duped and sold a pup.

Now reality is sinking in as people begin to realise how much worse off we will be, not just economically but politically. There's a very real danger of the peace in Northern Ireland being endangered by this stupidity, and the future of the Union is in doubt too.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Now reality is sinking in as people begin to realise how much worse off we will be, not just economically but politically.
Sinking in for who? I don't see evidence for this great realisation or change of heart.

Brexiteers are Brexiteers for a whole host of reasons -- personally I don't know anyone who is now freaking out about how terrible it's all going to be apart from 'remainers'.

As for migration again I just think of principle. Imagine an African Union, which insisted on free movement within Africa. Do we really think there would be no trouble in SA as a result? It's so predictable a child could figure it out.

In principle there no reason to cede political power for the sake of a trade deal, it's perfectly normal to have a trade deal AND political sovereignty, e.g Norway.

So people don't want to be economically bullied into EU federalism. You don't really need to buy any lies for that position.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:28 AM
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Is there any subject you know anything about? Maybe you should read more and rant less.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
I think it's going swimmingly, don't you?


I’m American, so I probably don’t understand the subtleties, but honestly it looks like a bunch of semi-disenfranchised voters were tricked by a conservative populist movement that sprang-up for many reasons, but spurred heavily by a refugee crisis and slow economic recovery.

I heard that if they voted again today it wouldn’t pass.

So, come on you pussies! You voted for it, now it’s time to eat that cake. You’ll probably be worse off on the whole, but maybe the huddled masses will learn what they get when they buy into that populist crap.

Probably not though. And we’ll probably re-elect Trump too.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingtart View Post
Is there any subject you know anything about? Maybe you should read more and rant less.
That's cute, but it's not an argument.

I know the basic line about Cameron's backfired campaign. I know migration is more complex than your average racist would have you believe.

As for using the EU as a scape goat, maybe. But we also hear plenty of great things about the EU -- has it not brought peace and prosperity to a traditionally war torn Europe? It's not a one sided story at all.

I know that the leave campaign will exaggerate and spin in order to gain votes -- that's politics doesn't surprise me one bit. You really don't need to be very well informed to know all this it's just common knowledge based on mainstream messaging. Nothing much controversial or enlightening so far.

Feel free to refute a claim if you can be bothered since you're so well read.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:35 AM
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Remain 45% 51% 46% 46% 45% 45% 39% 46% 46% 47% 35%
Leave 43% 43% 43% 45% 44% 45% 34% 50% 51% 49% 38%

This is opinion polls on voting in a second referendum from right to left May 2017 to Jan 2018.

Given the reliability of these types of things it's safest to say opinion is still split roughly 50/50. Remember nobody really predicted Brexit, the odds were 5/1.

Supposedly as these negotiations get worse and worse, predictions more and more dire, and divisions within the Tory party all the more apparent we should see a marked dip in these Leave percentages. No such luck.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
So, come on you pussies! You voted for it, now it’s time to eat that cake.

Probably not though. And we’ll probably re-elect Trump too.
Like I said I'm waiting on the disaster. As is stands the unemployment rate is at a 4 decade low. I think the US is in a similar position.

There's probably this strange desire to see both economies crash just so we can say I told you so. But after all the threats and dire predictions I for one am pretty numb to it.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I’m American, so I probably don’t understand the subtleties, but honestly it looks like a bunch of semi-disenfranchised voters were tricked by a conservative populist movement that sprang-up for many reasons, but spurred heavily by a refugee crisis and slow economic recovery.

I heard that if they voted again today it wouldn’t pass.

So, come on you pussies! You voted for it, now it’s time to eat that cake. You’ll probably be worse off on the whole, but maybe the huddled masses will learn what they get when they buy into that populist crap.

Probably not though. And we’ll probably re-elect Trump too.
Not a bad summary. I foresee a time when the brexiteers have to go into hiding for the lies they told.

The British Establishment has never recovered from losing WW2. They've been in denial ever since, and still cherish an image of themselves as a world power akin to Norma Desmond. The brexiteers skilfully stoked that exceptionalism. England is not a team player, and does not want to belong to a club of equals. It still believes it rules the world. Such delusion should be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

You yanks appear to be suffering a similar identity crisis. I don't think anyone was more surprised by Trump's victory than him. Just like Boris playing the Brexit game to further his political ambitions, the Donald wanted "Presidential Candidate" on his resume, to raise his business profile. Losing would give him the perfect ammunition to blame the closed Washington elite and security services. He loves to paint himself as an outsider, a rebel, appealing to all the disenfranchised who unexpectedly voted for him. The trouble is, having won he now has to deliver all those outlandish promises, like a wall no one wants to pay for.
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