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  #1  
Old 02-12-2018, 03:13 PM
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This will be an ongoing thread for bits of media which expose the absurd aspects of modern liberal thinking. The type of stuff which compelled me to rethink my own political leaning.

Reading Orwell in particular gave me a romanticised vision of socialism and the left. It's true there is a great paradox in Orwell's outlook which is at once anti-establishment and for a system which necessarily centralises control. This notwithstanding his analysis of the attack on language -- and how our speech and even our thoughts can be curtailed, manipulated, policed by Big Brother and policed by each other in a climate where only certain things can be said or thought of is as relevant as ever.

That stuff made sense to me. Ironically the new leftist trend to 'de-platform' or ban or shut down anything they don't agree with doesn't seem to have taken heed to his message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8OP8Rzi0r8

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Old 02-12-2018, 04:18 PM
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Well. I'm not going to watch the youtube video because I can't do video where I'm from, but are you trying to address how liberals are ignorantly pushing towards censorship via Big Brother opinion police?

Censorship and mass spying is a very delicate issue and feeds back to freedom of speech, freedom of commerce, but also is in need of regulation. It's quiet sinister when media mogul industries can hire shills to market the Internet by commenting, most especially if the topic should be political -- business, campaigning, it's difficult to regulate where the line should be drawn on what businesses can hire private citizens to do.

Oh. Phished, hook, line, and sinking. Tell us what you really mean? I'll never check out the videos you post, so I'm interested in only your opinion, unless you have an article or essay I can read?
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:51 AM
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I will go into more detail in due course but take universities and social media as an example.

Take a look into the policies which govern the demonatisation of videos on Youtube.

Just to give one example Karen Straughan uploaded a video recently analysing a interview between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman. The interview has become infamous because it's a naked display the type of tactics which SJWs are renowned for. Newman was never interested in exploring what Peterson had to say, and only wanted to create a strawman villain to attack and misrepresented Peterson's speech at every turn so much so that the interview truly blew people away.

The day after the interview the Guardian produced and article again painting Cathy as a victim and Peterson and his hoard of alt righters as a group of vicious misogynist trolls. But if you know Peterson, he's a serious thinker, and a perfectly reasonable even endearing character. So something's deeply wrong.

OK so then Karen Straughan uploads her analysis. Here's the result:

"Within ten minutes of this video going up, Channel 4 had hit me with a copyright takedown. I filed a dispute based on fair use and it's now viewable again, but have lost my monetization privileges on this video for up to 30 days, the fuckers.

Gotta love it. They set it up so you can't make a dime during the period your video will get 90% of its lifetime views."

The title of the thread alludes to a documentary film made by a feminist. Here's a young independent woman who has been making films for over a decade -- she smashes it with a great film which skyrockets her to fame. You'd think the left would be happy for her. Yet the reaction is to try and shut it down because it happens to explore the views of Male Rights Activists.

Vice runs the headline 'Why Australian Men's Rights Activists Had Their Bullshit Documentary Banned'

Netflix had it up for a little while and then decided to take it down. Why?

OK then.

Imagine the headline running 'Why Australian Feminists had their bull shit documentary banned'.

Won't happen.

Milo Yiannopoulos is permanently banned from Twitter and is routinely banned from speaking at universities. This is normal, "in the UK in the past three years, institutions have enacted 148 bans, 30 institutions banning newspapers, 25 banning songs, 20 banning sports clubs or societies and 19 banning speakers or events."

Why? Well we all know the epithets:

Nazi
White supremacist
Homophobe
Racist
Xenophobe
Misogynist

blah blah blah

This I think explains the attitude of a lot of SJW's because social media and the universities through censorship herd the culture in a certain direction. And the policy of shutting shit down for the other side rather than inviting them to the table for an adult discussion has been mapped out for them. They think that they have a right not to be offended -- quick logical check on that renders it ridiculous, obviously.

I try to use women to illustrate these points -- because people would otherwise think all women really agree with this stuff. This girl is 26 so has just been through the meat-grinder of today's universities:

"Everyone is in this big race to be the most progressive, and the most [air quotes] open-minded [air quotes], and the most oppressed. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen. And it's just, it's like infesting, like, the internet, and it's starting to seep out into the real world, and like, I really, I really don't like it. I don't. [....] Tumblr is the reason there is just this outbreak and infestation of SJWs ruining muh internets and ruining muh real life and just sucking the sense of humor out of so many people I know. And just like, they're all in this big competition to see who can be the most progressive, and the most tolerant. At the same time being the most annoying and the most intolerant people that I've ever, ever met in my life. It is just a big-- it's the oppression Olympics. Everybody is forcing themselves into the oppression Olympics and they are making problems for themselves. [The] victim complex is amazing with these people. It's mindboggling. The otherkin, we got the 50 freakin' different genders, we got the PS-- PSTD, from, cyber-bullying, what?"
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:47 AM
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25 Questions for Men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGwfGSHJCY
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:29 AM
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Part of post modernism is about the destruction of grand narratives. It starts from a Kantian critique of 'pure reason'. The fallibility of sense data, or the inability to perceive things as they are, and the subjectiveness of interpretation, renders truth a sort of unobtainable fluid. Y'know, things are only true as far as humans can perceive which turns out to be not that far, and the edifices of truth we therefore build are in part or wholly social constructs.

OK and the objectivist or materialist comes along and says that sense data is all we have to interpret the world and you differentiate between truth and falsehood in order to survive.

In any case taking the idea that everything is socially constructed to its conclusion in part explains the negation of binary gender, and now the negation of biological race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auMy4-4RBiU
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:51 AM
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Candace Owens discusses white guilt: https://youtu.be/at0t53G3C7U
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:49 PM
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I don't want to sound fiendishly fastidious, but we ought to agree on our language.

The word "liberal" is given contradictory definitions. Academics and philosophers often use it to refer to people who believe in things like the principles animating the American Revolution and Lockean philosphy. However, most ordinary folks think the American Revolution and Locke are more congruent with conservative thought than liberal belief.

So it might be simpler to use the terms left and right.

However, these terms are morphing and mutating all thet time.

Through most of the 19th and 20 th Century the battle of left v right was the battle of poor v rich. Whether we are talking about the Paris Commune of 1870 or those who subscribed to what Harrington said in "The Other America," to be a leftist was to be on the side of the poor.

Now, it seems that to be a leftist means to be on the side of the female, the black and the homosexual and to be white and male is to possess the Mark of Cain, even if one were Bobby Kennedy or Jesus.

Formerly, rightists, in America, believed in private enterprise and some respect for civil rights: The first republican president, Lincoln, opposed slavery while segregationist Democrats wanted to perpetuate America's original sin; large sections of the republican party used to be hospitable to civil rights and diversity. Today, people on the right are like the rabble in the "Monkey Trial," in the 20's, in Tennessee.

Formerly, Conservatives in America reviled Russia; today Trump is Russia's fat old boy toy.

As Bob Dylan said in "The Times they are a Changin," the "wheel's still in spin."
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DoggedDavid View Post
So it might be simpler to use the terms left and right.

You're right it's all getting muddled. I mean, in a way, I'm liberal, in the sense that I don't care what you do. I don't think you have the right not to be criticised for it. But do whatever you want so long as everyone involved is so voluntarily.

I remember a time when it felt like it was the right, the conservative Christian right telling everyone what they can and can't do. Indeed, the times have changed.

We do seem to have a tendency to become that which we fight against.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:51 AM
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... hey John, you’ve been putting a huge amount of effort into yer thinking and I for one have been enjoying the reads
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:05 AM
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Some gems about equality for a Friday morning:

I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.

Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.

Linda Gordon

I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.

Andrea Dworkin

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.

Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organisation NOW

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.

Andrea Dworkin

The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist.

Ti-Grace Atkinson

Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.

Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will p.6

When a woman reaches ****** with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.

Sheila Jeffrys

Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.

Catherine McKinnon

The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.

Sharon Stone

Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo.

Jodie Foster, quoted in The New York Times Magazine

The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.

Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female

And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.

Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.

Mary Daly

If any one is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them.

David Angier

Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.

Catherine Comins

As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE.

Marilyn French

I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.

Barbara Jordan, former Congresswoman

Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence.

Judith Levine

Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do.

Popular Feminist Graffiti

I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys.

Treena Shapiro
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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@JC I think the problem with this compilation of quotes is that in the information environment so densely populated you can find any number of quacks who will say anything good or bad, left right or center.

So the question to ask yourself might be what is the political influence these people can realistically wield. Have they influenced policy before? In what way? What was the impact and result?

I'm not saying that these things are unimportant but one has to be realistic about it. Now from my point of view these types of talk are concerning but not alarming. Worthy to check in on from time to time but not to keep a steady eye on.

I remember following quite closely the madness that came out of Evergreen College but when you consider that the total enrollment of the college is 4K whereas the community college I attended (Anne Arundel) has 50K it puts it into perspective. According to the Wiki it is the 64th largest college in Washington State. So I do not take that as representative of either the country or the state. Now to my knowledge that incident hasnt been repeated on that campus or on others since but the way its been told you would think the entire educational system is collapsing. I think its declining because of predatory commercialism but thats another story.

As a watcher of JP since long before the C-16 controversy launched him into cult status I would mind you to vomit up the red pill as much as you can and go back into this with a fresh and skeptical mind. Because JP is worth listening to, the man is a genius but hes bought a little too much into himself and thats definitely polluted his message some. A lot of times when he accuses the left of ideological dogmaticism he's right but he typically refuses to see the beam in his own eye so to speak. Case in point the talking points you listed off about postmodernism is a recital. I know every single thing youve referenced and if I wanted to take the time I could go and find each video that youve taken them from. Theres nothing of your ownt thought. Even the thread itself is unabashedley lifted, not inspired, lifted from JP. So all Im seeing here is regurgitation and its not even good regurgitation because it has nothing of your diet in it, its just JP's ideas partially digested and spewed up.

I dont know if youve known JP enough to get this joke:

https://tangetialmenagerie.wordpress...concept-album/



And so heres the thing you might want to go watch the two debates that JP has with Sam Harris and it really delineates the limits of his theories. There are two things which I took away from it. JP whether he likes it or not is more in the postmodernist camp then the scientist's camp and thats mostly because hes a student of Jung who was a proponent of the individual which thus requires perspective and a multifaceted truth which is in part what postmodernism posits.

Science so far as we can tell is infinitely reductive in addition to being circumscribed to the mechanisms of how and the exclusion of why. Its an unintelligble question within the framework of the system.


Say you want to change your sex from male to female or vice versa. Science doesnt give a shit why you want to or if you should do it. It is ultimately a bioengineering problem. Can you make the body grow tits (yes) can you make a male body develop a uterus and ovaries? Given a sufficient advance in technology I cannot fathom why that answer would in a century be no.


One of the presuppositions, roughly speaking , JP maintains is that a truth can sometimes not be true enough. One of the examples he gives is should human beings have the knowledge to weaponize anthrax and what he goes on to say is that basically there is a proper time for that knowledge and that truth is whatever sustains the human. But this recalls an exchange in Shogun between Toranaga and Blackthorne:

There are no mitigating circumstances when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.

Unless you win.

What JP is doing is retroactively qualifying the rightness of a solution based on its outcome and when you consider this in light of his views on morality, the absolutism that exists in his world view, then failure is resultant of a moral flaw and success, even if tyrannical, if managed properly in such a way that it doesnt destabilize the system is moral. His views seem to have evolved to the point where Boaz and Jachin are equiprimordial with morality. Thats my problem with him.
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Old 02-16-2018, 03:11 PM
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Obviously a series of one sided quotes without context isn’t meant to take down a whole philosophy. This is really just to illustrate that feminism is not solely about equality. And in my view this is why there is such a great gulf between people who believe in equality and people who identify as feminist. Because feminism has shown itself -- to whatever degree -- to also be about misandry.

What impact that has had is probably hard to estimate. But look, you have kids? I remember my political awakening when I was young and yes it was Marxist and yes it was toxic. How many young women entered into adulthood believing that all men are potential rapists who should be dutifully hated, or that enjoying sex is some kind of collusion with the patriarchy? How many men feel guilt for all their supposedly tyrannical, oppressive and dominant tendencies? It’s the same old problem we have of applying hate and shame to groups instead of individuals. I can’t see how today my kids can go through school without something like this being forced upon them at some stage and I see it as stifling, arresting and overall just a deeply negative and depressing world view. It really does matter what young people (or anyone for that matter) are told about themselves and their peers.

Also if we were trying to break up the family we seem to have done a pretty good job.

To be clear this isn’t an exposition of my own philosophy. I’m not anything like a social scientist. In any case I rarely read anything which can’t be traced back to one theorist or another. JP probably isn’t JP without Jung. So no these are not my ideas and neither am I trying to validate everything JP has to say or make this into a JP-centric thing.

For what it's worth I am saying that he is worth listening to and that the left’s reaction to him so far has been largely infantile. This reaction is part of a wider trend to try and silence voices deemed offensive.

Aside from that we can probably agree that the fluidity of identity, gender or race for example is part of an overall trend to break the confines of social constructs which has its roots in postmodernism.

The reason I mentioned Kant is because he really wanted to leave space in philosophy for this kind of thinking. The thinking which relies on multiplicity of truths, say, based on subjective experience something like that. Supposedly he was trying to save religion at the time.

Oh… and white guilt is stupid and annoying

I have listened to little to SH and JP's convos but I wasn't paying much attention I'll give them a proper listen and come back to you.
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:43 PM
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I applaud John Constantine for his succession of quotes of militant feminists

We should underscore and draw attention to the barbarism, infantilism and desire to castrate that imbues so much of the feminist movement.

Recently, on another writer's site, I provided an itemized listing of some of the faults and harms that men suffer. I was considered anti feminist for worrying about pain that befell men and was banned from the forum.

Likewise, in 1986, I argued, before a NY organization known as the Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights, that we should make AIDS, and fighting the illness and getting a cure, a central issue. One gay man said I was anti feminist because AIDS, primarily (At that time), was an illness that men sufferred. Of course, I was right: The number of AIDs cases in 1986 was a scintilla of the number of cases we had ten years later when the triple drug cocktails, which could suppress the virus, came on the market.

In 1994, when Lorena Bobbit cut off her husband's penis, many women cheered. (I always said that Bobbit and OJ Simpson were the two phenomena which made the Republicans sweep the 94 midterm elections)

BlueWPC suggests that the excesses of feminism are not worrisome because they do not have that much power. That's analagous to saying, in 1923, that Adolf Hitler is nothing to worry about because he is not in power.

Also, The rise of feminism is positively correlated with the collapse in the birthrate. In many European nations, the birthrate is beneath the replacement rate. Call me a retrograde old man, I don't give a damn. I happen to think that the civilization that gave us Wintson Churchill and Shakespeare and Dante and Thomas Paine and Galileo and David and Dostoyevsky must not perish from the earth.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:21 AM
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So I listened to much of their second talk. Both Harris and Peterson begin by expressing some regret about the first encounter which they say became bogged down.

Tbh although their interactions are worthwhile what we're left with as a result isn't really much which we could say necessarily builds on either of their two positions. What I mean by that is the duel didn't expose a great miscalculation on the part of either speaker.

For almost the entire talk they managed to get stuck again on what might be the validity and/or danger of exploring mythology and theology as though these aspects of human thought have value.

Harris basically says the danger is such that anything which asserts truth whilst also pertaining to the supernatural should be consigned to the history books and left out of serious philosophical or scientific discussions.

He has two main qualifications for this. One is just the extent of horror made possible by mysticism. He cites the Dobu, I won't go into detail but this tribe he says do some pretty horrible things to each other and live under a brutal set of superstitions. As he says, it's dangerous bull shit and you run the risk of dignifying it when you perform these analytical tricks in order to extract some kind of philosophical truths out of it.

Second he questions the method. Here he says the analytical trick Peterson employs can be used against anything. He proceeds to perform something similar using a recipe. You can view here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1wWtqCwpFw

In response Peterson goes on to delineate and qualify his method of extracting the ‘wheat from the chaff’. But really I’m not so sure any of this matters. This really doesn’t refute Peterson’s analysis for example of Cain and Abel.

You could even say that it’s pretty cheap to say look I’m not interested in whether you can find deep meaning in the story of Cain and Abel, because I can pretend to find meaning in a cooking recipe. I can pretend to find deep meaning in anything. It’s like OK but I’ve discussed how the story goes, and I’ve explained why it’s important. Harris doesn’t deal with what Peterson actually says here because he simply doesn’t want to lend any countenance to scripture.

The problem he has is every time he says mysticism is dangerous bullshit, or literal interpretations of scripture are crazy Peterson categorically agrees. But this doesn’t negate the validity or the value of the analysis.

To put it another way, if I give you an analysis of Cain and Abel and you want to discredit it, you have to put to me why my analysis does not represent the story as it is. If my analysis holds then we have an important truth extracted from scripture which doesn’t require any supernatural component and it is worthwhile in the same way a philosophical or psychological analysis of any kind of fiction might be worthwhile.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:24 AM
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Unfortunate title, but here's some no nonsense words of wisdom from Doris Lessing: https://youtu.be/fhKB7dXN7H0
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DoggedDavid View Post
I applaud John Constantine for his succession of quotes of militant feminists

We should underscore and draw attention to the barbarism, infantilism and desire to castrate that imbues so much of the feminist movement.

Recently, on another writer's site, I provided an itemized listing of some of the faults and harms that men suffer. I was considered anti feminist for worrying about pain that befell men and was banned from the forum.

Likewise, in 1986, I argued, before a NY organization known as the Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights, that we should make AIDS, and fighting the illness and getting a cure, a central issue. One gay man said I was anti feminist because AIDS, primarily (At that time), was an illness that men sufferred. Of course, I was right: The number of AIDs cases in 1986 was a scintilla of the number of cases we had ten years later when the triple drug cocktails, which could suppress the virus, came on the market.

In 1994, when Lorena Bobbit cut off her husband's penis, many women cheered. (I always said that Bobbit and OJ Simpson were the two phenomena which made the Republicans sweep the 94 midterm elections)

BlueWPC suggests that the excesses of feminism are not worrisome because they do not have that much power. That's analagous to saying, in 1923, that Adolf Hitler is nothing to worry about because he is not in power.

Also, The rise of feminism is positively correlated with the collapse in the birthrate. In many European nations, the birthrate is beneath the replacement rate. Call me a retrograde old man, I don't give a damn. I happen to think that the civilization that gave us Wintson Churchill and Shakespeare and Dante and Thomas Paine and Galileo and David and Dostoyevsky must not perish from the earth.

Ok, your comments are intriguing and as a female who tries to embrace all minority, I have to say that just like every political or religious standpoint and beliefs are realistically on a spectrum otherwise the world would be cut down the middle black/white good/bad, when in truth each separate opinion can vary and does depending on our constant stimulus in family, waking life, and dreams. All play a factor into who we are and what we find funny.

Do I find it funny that Bobbitt mutilated her husband? I might laugh at a clever song that mentioned Bobbitt and I think I even have a couple freewrites that mention the woman, but not in idolization or brave envy, more out of stupidity for not leaving or thinking she couldn't leave.

Hating men. I understand why some women would, just as I understand why some black people hate all white people. I hate hate and hate hating hate and I'm just too weird and have those issues where I've always felt too privileged as a white woman and once I realized how racist the rest of the world was, I knew I had a lot of work to do as an adult. Honest, when I first learned about slavery I cried and not sure I ever got over it, serious I got the VHS of Roots sitting around all my books and just waiting to find kids to subject it to before I teach them how to.. garden.

Why are not voting for a president who wants to build a bullet train? These are the types of topics I wish our nation cared for more than arguing about migrant workers crossing borders to work on U.S. tomato pesticide death traps and abattoirs. Raise your hand if you want to kill a pig everyday for minimum wage and debt while you sweat in a tin-can trailer you can't even afford.
They sometimes shoot those migrants when they try and run away. Nope. Slavery doesn't exist in U.S.

Go walls! Game Of Thrones next exit.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Beesauce View Post
Hating men. I understand why some women would, just as I understand why some black people hate all white people. I hate hate and hate hating hate and I'm just too weird and have those issues where I've always felt too privileged as a white woman and once I realized how racist the rest of the world was, I knew I had a lot of work to do as an adult. Honest, when I first learned about slavery I cried and not sure I ever got over it, serious I got the VHS of Roots sitting around all my books and just waiting to find kids to subject it to before I teach them how to.. garden.
Hating men or white people is pretty dumb. I understand it inasmuch as I understand that some people are stupid.

Be sure to let them (these kids you're looking for) know that slavery is an ancient institution perpetuated by every race at one time or another across the globe for millennia. Putting it crudely enslaving the conquered, the criminal, the weak and the poor was the order of the day pretty much wherever you look. Nobody was safe regardless of the colour of your skin -- this was all about power.

If any white person is called upon to feel guilty on behalf of the elite one percent of Americans who owned slaves they can also be called upon to feel pride on behalf of those who fought successfully to have it abolished.

Here’s the big omission about African slaves. The Atlantic slave trade is roughly 400 years from the 15th - 19th century. The corresponding Arab slave trade which was just as brutal for Africans 1400 years and carried on long after 1807. This isn’t to make the case that one is worse than the other, it is to highlight that one precedes the other is hardly ever discussed. That it actually still goes on in modern form today is mind blowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXa8S6NsKw

I hope we wouldn’t say that Arab children should feel ashamed about this. Unless we really believe in the heritability of sin I suppose.
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Old 02-17-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Hating men or white people is pretty dumb. I understand it inasmuch as I understand that some people are stupid.

Be sure to let them (these kids you're looking for) know that slavery is an ancient institution perpetuated by every race at one time or another across the globe for millennia. Putting it crudely enslaving the conquered, the criminal, the weak and the poor was the order of the day pretty much wherever you look. Nobody was safe regardless of the colour of your skin -- this was all about power.

If any white person is called upon to feel guilty on behalf of the elite one percent of Americans who owned slaves they can also be called upon to feel pride on behalf of those who fought successfully to have it abolished.

Here’s the big omission about African slaves. The Atlantic slave trade is roughly 400 years from the 15th - 19th century. The corresponding Arab slave trade which was just as brutal for Africans 1400 years and carried on long after 1807. This isn’t to make the case that one is worse than the other, it is to highlight that one precedes the other is hardly ever discussed. That it actually still goes on in modern form today is mind blowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXa8S6NsKw

I hope we wouldn’t say that Arab children should feel ashamed about this. Unless we really believe in the heritability of sin I suppose.
I think you’ve been taking pills that are coloured red rather than the red pill, until this post, and now you are nearer to the truth of the matter. Taking “sides” in this debate just makes you one of the wind-up-toy plebs, keeping one bunch of fuck-knobs in power instead of the other bunch of fuck-knobs.

Taking a red pill, in a Matrix sense of the action, rather than the commandeered “right” sense of the action, should make you realise that this Society is just masturbation for a few people who are chemically-imbalanced enough to believe that they, for example, need billions of dollars to survive. But these fat old gentlemen and ladies are just lazy inbred thug assholes who do the same (or much much less) amount of work and have the same intelligence as the plebs who think highly of them. Catholic Priests are just old farts wearing dresses, and they honestly cannot communicate with an imaginary made-up superbeing any more than you and I can.

We still are slaves (albeit consensual with slave morality) acting out their queer degenerate fantasy.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:38 PM
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J.C. you're right. Reminds me of Blade Runner and building armies of slaves. A big damned dream and yes, it seems an unavoidable desire when one is tinkering on massive world scales.

Coffee, I tell myself is one of those luxuries we all take for granted and without it, the waking world of commerce would simply fall over in tragedy if the coffee bean seed should cease to exist, you know what I mean?

Slavery is rampant and was never truly abolished, oh yes, but my original comment was me sharing my response as a child after being introduced to the form most children first learn in elementary school. I don't feel that way anymore, I see it's still a problem white privelage and slavery of all races including whites and is one of those repeat historical moments that's hear no speak no see no. For sure, anyone here read "Tomatoland" by Barry Estabrook?

Great read, horrible truths as outrageous as Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. Slavery is very real and it's just not talked about for obvious reasons. Why talk about modern day wage debt and abuse? That's part of how we get our food right?

And then there's all these stats about how much food is thrown away just because it wasn't perfect. Oh it's almost half of all the food produce is tossed for profit loss trumps proper food allocation

here's someone's review of Tomatoland, a book everyone should read if they care about actual modern day slavery:
http://politicsoftheplate.com/?page_id=831
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
I think you’ve been taking pills that are coloured red rather than the red pill, until this post, and now you are nearer to the truth of the matter. Taking “sides” in this debate just makes you one of the wind-up-toy plebs, keeping one bunch of fuck-knobs in power instead of the other bunch of fuck-knobs.

Taking a red pill, in a Matrix sense of the action, rather than the commandeered “right” sense of the action, should make you realise that this Society is just masturbation for a few people who are chemically-imbalanced enough to believe that they, for example, need billions of dollars to survive. But these fat old gentlemen and ladies are just lazy inbred thug assholes who do the same (or much much less) amount of work and have the same intelligence as the plebs who think highly of them. Catholic Priests are just old farts wearing dresses, and they honestly cannot communicate with an imaginary made-up superbeing any more than you and I can.

We still are slaves (albeit consensual with slave morality) acting out their queer degenerate fantasy.
Hi matey -- red pill will quickly become a cliche if it hasn't already.

Here I was really alluding to a doc in which a young girl rethinks her ideology and linking it to my own departure from Marxism/socialism/leftism. This doesn't really mean that I'm now a rightist, just that I'm not an ideologue (though I'll toy with anarchism because tax is so corrupt it makes my eyes bleed).

I was the one not ten years ago arguing for nationalisation of the means of production, and the establishment of the dictatorship of the prole. This was going to bring full employment, efficient allocation of resources, a non interventionist foreign policy and equality etc etc etc. And every time anyone pointed out that this never really found expression I would argue that true communism was never attempted and that some enlightened society could do it if sticking true to the doctrine. Ahhh yes it is the human component which defeats communism, you could defo do it with robots.

If you read 'God is not Great' by Hitchens he dedicates a few pages to something similar as a reason for why he might be qualified to persuade people to rethink their religious beliefs. I don't think he ever gave up on Marx entirely because any prominent philosopher has some value but he does admit that he had to extricate himself from the quasi-religious world of serious Marxist/Trotskyist.

I guess the aim hear is to prevent ideological allegiances from screening out all truths which are counter-intuitive to those ideogies.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:54 AM
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BlueWPC suggests that the excesses of feminism are not worrisome because they do not have that much power. That's analagous to saying, in 1923, that Adolf Hitler is nothing to worry about because he is not in power.

@dogged I didnt suggest that at all. I said its a problem worth checking in on from time to time but not one to obsess over. Because you dont know whats going to be the big problem of tomorrow and if all of your focus is on this single issue it is almost guaranteed you will miss the real and defining moments of your time.


Obviously a series of one sided quotes without context isn’t meant to take down a whole philosophy. This is really just to illustrate that feminism is not solely about equality. And in my view this is why there is such a great gulf between people who believe in equality and people who identify as feminist. Because feminism has shown itself -- to whatever degree -- to also be about misandry.

@JC Then why bother? You know take the best arguments they have and argue with those and that way you bring out the best in your opponent and thats really what you want anyways because if youre engaging the best of them theyll engage the best of you.

What impact that has had is probably hard to estimate. But look, you have kids? I remember my political awakening when I was young and yes it was Marxist and yes it was toxic. How many young women entered into adulthood believing that all men are potential rapists who should be dutifully hated, or that enjoying sex is some kind of collusion with the patriarchy? How many men feel guilt for all their supposedly tyrannical, oppressive and dominant tendencies? It’s the same old problem we have of applying hate and shame to groups instead of individuals. I can’t see how today my kids can go through school without something like this being forced upon them at some stage and I see it as stifling, arresting and overall just a deeply negative and depressing world view. It really does matter what young people (or anyone for that matter) are told about themselves and their peers.


I dont have kids and my political awakening happened simply through reading the newspaper everyday. And to answer your question probably not as many as you would think. I graduated high school in 2006 and I never heard anything like this nor when I was in college. It might very well be a regional phenomenon. Put it like this the day I see a Texan university fall to the insanity of radical feminism then Ill worry. Right now there appears to be a traitor in the white house so Im a tad more concerned about that.



For what it's worth I am saying that he is worth listening to and that the left’s reaction to him so far has been largely infantile. This reaction is part of a wider trend to try and silence voices deemed offensive.


I think hes worth listening to meself and that the reaction of those he has chosen to engage with has been infantile. You gotta remember its a big world and he hasnt exactly cast a wide net. Today he has but early on not really. Personally Ive talked to these people and yes some are lunatics. I was in Belgrade this past year and had the questionable pleasure of talking to a pair of overweight feminists who saw mysogony in everything so I can definitely relate but in all of my travels I have met two of that type so I keep it in perspective.

I dont question the validity of Peterson's analyses as the stories which he is talking about are capable of supporting more than a single interpretation. I question the prescriptions he draws from them. And this I think is the unstated concern of Harris. That because you can conceive a system of meaning from seemingly anything you can then beget a justification for whatever acts needed to reify that system.

In part what Harris appears to want is to wrest determinate agency from the pages of old religion whereas in Peterson's case he views them as guide and descriptor of life and to a great a deal I side with Peterson over Harris.


Aside from that we can probably agree that the fluidity of identity, gender or race for example is part of an overall trend to break the confines of social constructs which has its roots in postmodernism.


I think its a trend to break the confines of biological constructs. I imagine that the subconscious logic is we have mastered our environments, made radical often destructive changes, why should our own bodies be sacred? Or why should the body not be slave to the sculptor's will?


If any white person is called upon to feel guilty on behalf of the elite one percent of Americans who owned slaves they can also be called upon to feel pride on behalf of those who fought successfully to have it abolished.

Except the south. Which is really the cankerous tumor of the matter isnt it?


Otherwise I agree. Slavery was an accepted institution the world over and in various forms still is today. Though to break with most people I never found slave narratives interesting. Slaver narratives though. God help me I love those. In fact the third book of me tetralogy is about wide ranging slaving expeditions

I was the one not ten years ago arguing for nationalisation of the means of production, and the establishment of the dictatorship of the prole. This was going to bring full employment, efficient allocation of resources, a non interventionist foreign policy and equality etc etc etc. And every time anyone pointed out that this never really found expression I would argue that true communism was never attempted and that some enlightened society could do it if sticking true to the doctrine. Ahhh yes it is the human component which defeats communism, you could defo do it with robots.


And here is why I would tell you to step back because ten years is not a long time. And it seems to me the pendulum reached its apogee and is now swinging to the far right. Maybe an exercise to do would be to go back and try and debate Peterson's ideas or your own ideas because this paragraph itself sounds far too confessional and is actually again one of Peterson's arguments embodied in this case in yourself. Theres ideological possession for you.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Hi matey -- red pill will quickly become a cliche if it hasn't already.

Here I was really alluding to a doc in which a young girl rethinks her ideology and linking it to my own departure from Marxism/socialism/leftism. This doesn't really mean that I'm now a rightist, just that I'm not an ideologue (though I'll toy with anarchism because tax is so corrupt it makes my eyes bleed).

I was the one not ten years ago arguing for nationalisation of the means of production, and the establishment of the dictatorship of the prole. This was going to bring full employment, efficient allocation of resources, a non interventionist foreign policy and equality etc etc etc. And every time anyone pointed out that this never really found expression I would argue that true communism was never attempted and that some enlightened society could do it if sticking true to the doctrine. Ahhh yes it is the human component which defeats communism, you could defo do it with robots.

If you read 'God is not Great' by Hitchens he dedicates a few pages to something similar as a reason for why he might be qualified to persuade people to rethink their religious beliefs. I don't think he ever gave up on Marx entirely because any prominent philosopher has some value but he does admit that he had to extricate himself from the quasi-religious world of serious Marxist/Trotskyist.

I guess the aim hear is to prevent ideological allegiances from screening out all truths which are counter-intuitive to those ideogies.
Yeah, I would not go too far with the red pill analogy, but I was thinking there is a bit of 1:1 correlation between
1) The God of The Old Testament and the people in charge
2) The people in charge and the demiurge (of Gnosticism)
Taking the two together and I have found Gnosticism rather than the red pill.

But to the topic at hand. What is interesting about a lot of the issues in society today, from a Modern Liberal perspective, is that the number of people expressing their concern on social media is approximately equal to the number of people required to mitigate the issue.

Take climate change for instance, and take Al "I have a larger carbon footprint than George Bush" Gore, now Al, according to himself, is a very big proponent of reducing carbon emissions, and let's say if we had a social platform of millions to tens of millions to hundreds of millions of people who, like Al Gore, want carbon emissions reduced by X% by year 20XX, the issue should theoretically disappear instantly... but it doesn't

Take equity, and once again the large number of people who would like society to be more equitable, and theoretically, once again, looking at the %'s, X% more X employed by 20XX, and the problem should theoretically already be solved. Surely, if we looked at the average University calling for change, we would not find most-to-all the Professors of Science and Maths to be old white guys, especially considering Universities are theoretically leading the way in this matter... whoops again!

The cynic within me would state that it seems these #-tags are more for virtue signalling rather than any type of commitment to the cause. The Leviathan trundles on.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
[I]

And here is why I would tell you to step back because ten years is not a long time. And it seems to me the pendulum reached its apogee and is now swinging to the far right. Maybe an exercise to do would be to go back and try and debate Peterson's ideas or your own ideas because this paragraph itself sounds far too confessional and is actually again one of Peterson's arguments embodied in this case in yourself. Theres ideological possession for you.
There's a lot to unpack here I don't have time just now but just for clarity's sake...

Admitting to no longer being a Marxist is a JP argument and therefore ideologically charged? I came to this conclusion long before I came across JP for the record. I'm unsure of why appearing confessional is an issue, it would be odd to appear anything otherwise given the context.

And also I'm now far right? Is that what we're saying here? If so could we pinpoint which ideas expressed specifically would be characterised as far right?
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
There's a lot to unpack here I don't have time just now but just for clarity's sake...

Admitting to no longer being a Marxist is a JP argument and therefore ideologically charged? I came to this conclusion long before I came across JP for the record. I'm unsure of why appearing confessional is an issue, it would be odd to appear anything otherwise given the context.

And also I'm now far right? Is that what we're saying here? If so could we pinpoint which ideas expressed specifically would be characterised as far right?


You hate black people. Oh, and probably Mexicans too by extension. You think women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or have any rights. This is proved by you getting your girl pregnant (see how that works?). You’re eating a lot of red pills (far-righters are always on the pills, “prescribed,” of course).

And... you’re in “business.” That’s a dead giveaway. You righty’s loves you some business.


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Old 02-20-2018, 03:48 AM
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On a semi-serious note.

I'm mixed race, Jamaican on my mother's side. My girlfriend is Zimbabwean. In my estimation, there's actually more of a likelihood that I descended from slaves than she.

My mum had her DNA tested which located her ancestors in Nigeria which makes sense as most slaves taken across the Atlantic came from West and Central Africa.

But it would be absurd for most people if I was to say just by virtue of this and despite my light complexion that I am more qualified to speak on the issue than she is. But this is how identity politics works. You inherit your guilt, your pride, your permission to speak on certain issues, your privilege or lack there of all by accident. Funnily enough it's often those who purport to fight racism who seem to be sizing everyone up based on their racial, ethnic and social backgrounds before they've even opened their mouths.

If you really take it seriously it's more or less impossible to have a conversation.

As George Carlin said 'Pride [or shame] should be reserved for something you did or achieved, not because of some accident at birth.'
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Yeah, I would not go too far with the red pill analogy, but I was thinking there is a bit of 1:1 correlation between
1) The God of The Old Testament and the people in charge
2) The people in charge and the demiurge (of Gnosticism)
Taking the two together and I have found Gnosticism rather than the red pill.

Hmmm -- I'm smelling David Icke in there somewhere.

Believe he's on tour, tickets selling fast!
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:56 AM
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@JC yeahhh its a little charged but the thing is Im 29 now and Ive seen that type of speech enough to recognize it as what I would dub the confession of the converted. Its very AAish. So theres that.

As for being far right now. You are definitely on the road. You felt the need to rail against radical feminists and post modernism. I know youve been watching this stuff for a while because you were able to hit all the basic points about those topics, so youve internalized them and are able to give them out at will. You cared enough to troll the webs for quotes so its obviously enough to piss you off and youve probably been pissed for a while.

But what really tipped the scales in my opinion was Milo. Milo is a sack of shit popularly called a provocateur. Now he himself was once the leader of the alt-right way back in its inception in the gamergate days and ff you want to go down the list of the evil shit this guy has said be my guest.

I say that to raise up the matter of him being banned from speaking way back when all that was still happening. I remember watching some of his stuff and its all still online and what I saw was a celebration of crassness and intellectual bankruptcy to which my mind was nope dont need that at a college. Because he was only ever show, no intellectualism. Its college yes and things have changed but unbridled incivility should not be encouraged much less celebrated. So I dont his banning as being an abdirgment of freedom of speech but insistence on a minimal standard of decorum and civility. And thats the contradiction I see in the alt-right which is of course now inextricably tied with fascism but its not the advocation for freedom of speech but the ability to say whatever you want with impunity.

A lot of people in the movement it seems yearn for older days but if Milo had been around in the 50's they would have lynched him for even stepping on campus grounds. The thing is like I mentioned earlier you want to engage the best of people and so when you put forward a spokesperson you want them to be the best you can produce but if Milo was the best then hte movement was morally and intellectually bankrupt which of course it has proven itself to be because remember Trump is the heir of the alt-right movement.

So yes you are definitely on the path
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:50 AM
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JC yeahhh its a little charged but the thing is Im 29 now and Ive seen that type of speech enough to recognize it as what I would dub the confession of the converted. Its very AAish. So theres that.
This is just another way of saying the abdication of an ideology sounds confessional. It doesn’t explain why that’s a problem. It seems unavoidable. Unless we’re simply saying that the act of renouncing Marxism is wrong. Perhaps that’s more to the point.

As for being far right now. You are definitely on the road. You felt the need to rail against radical feminists and post modernism. I know youve been watching this stuff for a while because you were able to hit all the basic points about those topics, so youve internalized them and are able to give them out at will. You cared enough to troll the webs for quotes so its obviously enough to piss you off and youve probably been pissed for a while.
The point of the thread was really to explore some absurdities within modern leftist, ‘politically correct’, say, thinking. And I actually used a well-known socialist to make a point about free speech and thought crime -- which leads me on to Milo…

But what really tipped the scales in my opinion was Milo. Milo is a sack of shit popularly called a provocateur. Now he himself was once the leader of the alt-right way back in its inception in the gamergate days and ff you want to go down the list of the evil shit this guy has said be my guest.
Because I said that Milo is routinely shut down by liberal institutions? That's just true. I could say Ben Shapiro, or anyone of that ilk because they all face a similar issue. Ben Shapiro is a Jew who people label as a Nazi. We’re just throwing these labels around without thinking it's just nonsense.

So I dont his banning as being an abdirgment of freedom of speech but insistence on a minimal standard of decorum and civility. And thats the contradiction I see in the alt-right which is of course now inextricably tied with fascism but its not the advocation for freedom of speech but the ability to say whatever you want with impunity.
In what fascist state in the history of forever did you have the ability to say whatever you want with impunity? I’ll refer back to 1984.

A lot of people in the movement it seems yearn for older days but if Milo had been around in the 50's they would have lynched him for even stepping on campus grounds. The thing is like I mentioned earlier you want to engage the best of people and so when you put forward a spokesperson you want them to be the best you can produce but if Milo was the best then hte movement was morally and intellectually bankrupt which of course it has proven itself to be because remember Trump is the heir of the alt-right movement.

So yes you are definitely on the path
That’s all fine and all but I haven’t said I yearn for the 50’s. Or that I love Milo or whatever.

But to sum up the ideas actually expressed:

To be truly liberal you mustn’t give into the the traditionally fascist occupation of forcibly suppressing opposing views.

The assertion that objective truth does not exist is finding expression in things as bizarre as transracialism. This is just funny more than anything. Cultural appropriation much?

To yearn for freedom and to cry out for the centralisation of power is paradoxical.

We have a tendency to become that which we fight against, in fighting against misogyny feminism has shown a strong capacity for misandry and hypocrisy.

Sin is not heritable.

In the words of Robert Mugabe, if this makes me Hitler, then let me be Hitler tenfold.

(Can you imagine what would happen now if I was a public figure, non of my previous statements would matter, in the minds of the public I would forever be Hitler -- such are the times)
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Old 02-20-2018, 04:40 PM
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The summation seems pretty true and fairly innocuous in the way you’ve presented it here JC


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Old 02-20-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
Hmmm -- I'm smelling David Icke in there somewhere.

Believe he's on tour, tickets selling fast!
Nope, not that nuts... yet... stick with me here, the universe is so many billions of years old, give or take, and so many light years across, give or take, and while this is interesting and, for example, a cosmologist can make a career from this, is this in any way relevant to our lives (Goldilocks theories aside)? We can live happily not even knowing this. But say if you or I do not pay our taxes, we be fucked.

So there is a relatively disproportionate effect that i) the Universe has on us (our lives), and ii) what society has on us (our lives). Ergo, questions such as, Who built society? Who runs society? How much agency do we have within society? These questions are more to the point w.r.t. our Universe, the one in which we live.
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